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War of the 10" MONSTER SQ bass drivers!

edited September 4 in Hard Data
Okay, okay, a bit misleading since I haven't done the actual "showdown", but here is what I have planned:

Requisites:
  • 10" nominal size bass drivers aimed at Sound Quality.
  • dual 2Ω or single 4Ω
  • VC Diameter ≥ 2.5"
  • RMS power ≥ 500W 
  • Vas ≤ 1.2ish ft³
  • Qts ≤ 0.5ish
  • X-max ≥ 12mm
  • low-distortion motors
  • "clean" FR out to ~500Hz  (will likely H.P. somewhere in the 100Hz-200Hz range)
  • < $300 each driver

Candidates thus far:
  • Dayton Ultimax UM10-22 (already have)
  • Dayton Reference 10" HO SVC-4 (should be here next week)
  • CSS SDX10 (should be here next week)
  • Adire Audio Brahma D2 (should be here next week)
Application/Alignment criteria:
  • F3 in the 38-40 Hz range
  • Sensitivity will be low given a woofer's traditional Fs and my requisite low Vas, but they will be implemented in multiples, as such:
  • Ultimax UM10-22's would be four drivers to a box
  • Reference 10 HO will be four drivers to a box
  • CSS SDX would be 2 drivers to a box (Vas is a bit larger than I'd like)
  • Adire Audio Brahma 10D2 would be 2 drivers to a box (too monstrous to mount more than 2, lol)
  • Maximum enclosure volume = 1.5-1.6ish ft³
  • They will be independently powered (separetely) from the midbass-midrange-treble via multi-kW amplifier(s), so BSC can be built into the design via more power input compared to the other drivers.
  • Tuning will be via four Earthquake PR's (two on each side of the enclosure, roughly mid-30's Hz)

If anyone else has suggestions for a good candidate, please let me know.   I only need extension down to 38-40Hz, so I prefer the Fs to not be too low, around 30Hz, ± a few Hz, but I do need LOUD bass since I don't listen to mickey-mouse vocalist/single-instrument solo recordings.  The vast majority of the time, it's death metal that needs to drop-kick you in the chest when the double-bass drum blast-beats rip into a song, hence high power handling and a healty Xmax.  I'm heavily leaning towards the four Ultimax's or Reference HO's due to the fact that I will have massive combined piston area equivalent to an ~18" cone. 

Comments

  • edited September 4
    Not a crazy high xmax driver, but I'd have a close look at the Peerless SDF 10" as well. These are the new updated replacements for the old XLS/XXLS models. They have big coils and are well vented, so power compression shouldn't be much of an issue at high SPL.


    My opinions are 100% factual
  • Vas is too large, so it would limit it to only two drivers, and with only 300W RMS, leads to very low ultimate SPL capability.
  • If you only need extension to ~40hz, then I would look at pro drivers. IIRC there is a 'war of the 10" midbasses' thread on DIYaudio that compared a bunch of them.

    Also, see this thread I made on HTGUIDE, there's discussion of similar drivers for a somewhat differnt application, but some of the links and dicussion may be helpful.

    http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?44396-Help-choosing-a-woofer-to-anchor-my-3-way-floorstander

    Personally, I would be skeptical about using the ultimax to 400hz in an 'SQ' type application, and note that SB has a few 10-12" drivers that would be suitable IMO. 
    dcibel
  • OscarJr said:
    Vas is too large, so it would limit it to only two drivers, and with only 300W RMS, leads to very low ultimate SPL capability.
    300WRMS is long term noise signal type of thermal limit. I bet if you fed it 500W of "music" signal and kept the excursion in check it would hold up just fine. But I digress, as it doesn't look like it fits your cabinet requirements anyway.

    Another might be Seas L26ROY:


    My opinions are 100% factual
  • edited September 5
    If you only need extension to ~40hz, then I would look at pro drivers. IIRC there is a 'war of the 10" midbasses' thread on DIYaudio that compared a bunch of them.

    Also, see this thread I made on HTGUIDE, there's discussion of similar drivers for a somewhat differnt application, but some of the links and dicussion may be helpful.

    http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?44396-Help-choosing-a-woofer-to-anchor-my-3-way-floorstander

    Personally, I would be skeptical about using the ultimax to 400hz in an 'SQ' type application, and note that SB has a few 10-12" drivers that would be suitable IMO. 
     Oh, I think I saw that thread now that I think about it.  :#   

    I don't plan to use the woofer up to 400Hz.  As I mentioned it will be HPF'd somewhere between 100Hz-200Hz.  I'm hoping for a nice output just slightly above that to prevent having to "fix" things after the fact.  I have very specific design constraints that cannot use 12" driver's due to my required enclosure size.  Thanks for that link, but my design is not a floor-stand'er.  Our design criteria is simply quite different.  While I don't need much deep bass extension, pro-audio drivers in the 10" size will not provide the punch I am looking for, and are therefore not suitable.  

    Look at the Vas of that Seas woofer.  It won't make the cut for my design criteria (meaning my enclosure requirements, as a single 10" simply won't cut it).   I need a lot of output in a small space, hence my need for multiples.  I think a lot of time people really under-estimate how much raw bass output my music really needs to sound visceral, "like you're there", meaning at a death metal concert.  It's not rap music obviously, as I don't need to cause seismic events, but the raw output that I'm looking for will not be satisfied by anything less than two 10" LOUD woofers. :)

    Thanks for the suggestions, but I have done the majority of my homework already.  Just hoping I blatantly over-looked a great driver that meets my pre-determined criteria somehow.  :)
  • Hivi SP10?

    It's a catch 22, the drivers that "work" in smaller spaces will ultimately have a low sensitivity in order to keep the Fs low enough for "subwoofer" use, so then you need the power handing in order to make any reasonable SPL.

    Anyway, I predict that the CSS and Adire drivers will perform very well on the HD tests, the Ultimax probably the worst of the bunch you're currently looking at.
    My opinions are 100% factual
  • HiVi SP10, now that one I had forgotten about, probably because it's NLA. hehe

    I agree with your prediction, but the Ultimax would work in quadruples-per-box, which is a plus in and of itself for Sd.  Distortion would also be reduced via less excursion for a given cone excursion.  Choices, choices....
  • edited September 5
    JL 10W7-3 if you are okay entering the car audio world.

    Free Air Resonance (Fs):30.6 Hz
    Electrical “Q”(Qes):0.578
    Mechanical “Q” (Qms):7.647
    Total Speaker “Q”(Qts):0.537
    Equivalent Compliance (Vas):1.28 cu. ft. (36.1 ltrs)
    One-Way, Linear Excursion (Xmax)*:0.9 in. (23 mm)
    Thermal Power Handling (Pt):500 Watts Continuous
    Reference Efficiency (no):0.171 %
    Efficiency (SPL @ 1W/1m):84.3 dB
    DC Resistance (Re):2.75Ω
    Effective Piston Area (Sd):59.8 sq. in. (0.0386 sq. m)
    Nominal Impedance (Znom):3Ω

    My opinions are 100% factual
  • That is $700 a piece.
  • I agree with dcibel - I think the CSS or Adire will triumph. Seems like more than a few peeps are not happy with Ultimax SQ (worrisome for me since I have a new UM15 on the shelf...)
    Don, Donno, or "Hey you" all work for me, But never "Mr Johnson"
  • Fair enough - our design criteria are definitely different, and you will cross much lower. I would still be skeptical of using the ultimax in a pure SQ context for music only, but that is me. In terms of the htguide thread linked, I just thought the  discussion there, and for example the linked extensive french comparison of 10" woofers in it, might be useful in your decisions. YMMV :)

    I'm surprised to hear pro audio drivers aren't going to give enough punch, which is for me counter-intuitive given that they are what I think would normally be used and suggested for extreme SPL music reproduction. Then again I am the first to admit I don't listen at near concert level SPLs, so I should leave the recommendations to others here who may have more experience with that design goal. I do think as the others said you have several great contenders on your list, I'd be surprised if the Adire and CSS won't win the day. I'll be watching what you choose with interest!
  • edited September 5


    I'm surprised to hear pro audio drivers aren't going to give enough punch, which is for me counter-intuitive given that they are what I think would normally be used and suggested for extreme SPL music reproduction. Then again I am the first to admit I don't listen at near concert level SPLs, so I should leave the recommendations to others here who may have more experience with that design goal. I do think as the others said you have several great contenders on your list, I'd be surprised if the Adire and CSS won't win the day. I'll be watching what you choose with interest!

    The problem with pro audio driver's in the 10"-size not giving punch is that most are simply midbasses/midranges with useable Xmax in the 2-6mm range (realistically).  Their Fs is very high, cones are thin, surrounds have limited travel, and the Qts is so low due to very strong motors that it shifts the EBP/midband/passband  way too high.  The few pro-audio 10's that are designated as true woofers have pretty large Vas which renders them useless for my enclosure size constraints.   Now pro-audio dual-15's and dual-18's in multiples, well that's a whole 'nother ballgame in a different zip code.



    Don't forget that I will be factoring in the fact that I will use multiples, but it won't be equally across the board.  In effect the comparison will be:

    four Ultimax 10s vs four Reference HO's vs two CSS SDX10's vs two Adire Brahma 10's

    the speakers will be tested individually, but the results must be skewed to account for the difference in the number of drivers that would/could be implemented.  Tricky, indeed!  The advantage of the Ultimax and Reference drivers is that for the same SPL, in those multiples specified, they will only have to move half as much as the SDX's/Brahma's (for a given SPL), and this test will definitely be running a lot of power (via a Peavey IPR2 7500)

    Depending on the final winner, I will likely use a Lab-Gruppen Clone (XBS DS20Q or FP22000Q) on a heavy duty 240V circuit that I'm planning to run anyways.  

    Believe it or not, I actually have a lot of faith in the Ultimax 10's.  There is one high-end speaker manufacturer that uses some Ultimax's in one of their (multi-thousand dollar) speakers, and the head-honcho there does not skimp on high-quality, truly low-distortion speakers in general.  So I'm expecting them to perform very well in the 10" size.
  • edited September 6
    Ok, run your distortion tests at 110, 120, and if possible, 130 dB / 1 meter.
    As far as I know, it takes about 115-120 to give a good "whack you in the chest" drum track.
    I'm always impressed with your scientific tests and subjective ratings. 
    The UMs do have the Xmax, question is overall SQ. I've always heard praise for the CSS woofers.
    Don, Donno, or "Hey you" all work for me, But never "Mr Johnson"
  • That won't work with OmniMic since distortion tests should technically be limited to 120dB at the mic.  To do 130 dB @ 1m, I would have to get 120dB at a further distance to produce an equivalent.  Either way, it will be interesting.
    rjj45
  • edited September 6
    Also to those wondering, I like my bass (from about 80Hz and down) with a big gain.  Currently I do this via DSP using a bass shelf with +9 to sometimes +12 dB.  Currently I use a Cerwin-Vega Stroker 15" in a big ported box, and it just laughs at the Peavey CS800X that is bridged into it.  With this kind of bass requirements, I can get it to easily light up the DDT protect lights on the amp.  I think this weekend I'm gonna hook up 1 channel of my IPR2 7500 to get more output out of it.  For my project, I'll have the bass drivers on their own amp, so I'll build the gain of the system right into the bi-amp'd aspect of it, as well as BSC.





    The tower of power.  Right now I'm running a bunch of extension cords from different outlets that are on different breakers, since I have a few things to tidy up on my  240V/120V extension box that will eventually power up everything on a dedicated 100A breaker/2awg wire.  My extension box will have 12 individual outlets each on it's own 20A breaker.  (Not that I will have 12 units drawing that much power, that's just the set-up configuration).  There will also be two 240V/50A outlets for future Lab-Gruppen clone amps.  :) 
    rjj45R-Carpenterkennyk
  • ..... causing a widespread brownout in the entire region.....
    kennyk
    Don, Donno, or "Hey you" all work for me, But never "Mr Johnson"
  • rjj45 said:
    ..... causing a widespread brownout in the entire region.....
    lol.  The other one is in my office at my work.   B)
    rjj45
  • Have you looked into PR-bandpasses? Very low HD systems, as the sound comes from the radiator. I have my UM10 in a 26ltr PR-bandpass, and the natural F3s are about 30 and 65Hz. You can of course use less PR mass and increase both numbers a bit.
  • I just realized the CSS SDX10 has a 2.38" voice-coil, eliminating itself from my own requisites!  LOL.

    I'll allow it because it has 750W RMS power handling (and because I already bought one for the showdown). 

    The one speaker I wish was a contender is my JBL W10GTi.  I only have one pair, and they were discontinued already.  If I can only find another pair.  I have one in a ported box I used to use in my car, but have since relegated it to outdoor use.   Probably the nicest 10" bass driver I have ever heard, due to it's DDD motor topology.  Actually it's the best sounding bass driver I have ever heard, regardless of size.  Curious as to how it measures up.








  • Wolf said:
    Have you looked into PR-bandpasses? Very low HD systems, as the sound comes from the radiator. I have my UM10 in a 26ltr PR-bandpass, and the natural F3s are about 30 and 65Hz. You can of course use less PR mass and increase both numbers a bit.

    I've seen your Overdrive sub, and I did find it very interesting indeed.  But it's just another one of those "it won't fit my design criteria" for this specific 3-way speaker system.






  • JBL is totally 💪🏼
  • 6thplanet said:
    JBL is totally 💪🏼
    Oh yea, it's beefy alright!   Every day I kick myself in the arse for not looking for more of these, but then again, I had no idea they would be discontinued, but at the same time it was surprising how long they were manufactured. They had a good ~20 year run!   I also have a W12GTi that I had to fix up with a different spider/surround since I had to fish out a metal chip that had gotten stuck inside from the pole vent side.   
  •  B) 


    Funny how the SDX10 and the Ultimax have roughly the same X-max, but the Ultimax is much more "imposing looking".  The surround is definitely overkill for the Ultimax.






    Frames look similar.  The JBL W10GTi has some additional aluminum above the top-plate, but it doesn't look like a shorting ring, more like it's part of the basket casting.  Those top-halves of the basket are definitely large clearance designs.








    Just look at that gorgeous black anodized aluminum cone!  Yumm!

  • Having used the RS woofers in a couple of builds, I'm in love with the hard hitting bass qualities of the RS alu cone
    Don, Donno, or "Hey you" all work for me, But never "Mr Johnson"
  • Can the Ultimax get any uglier?  Don't get me wrong I own the 12 but seriously it looks like an oversized toilet wax ring.
    OscarJrkennykPWRRYDrjj456thplanetWolf
     John H, thanks to JP I did get that email
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