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Feedback Concerning PT2C-8 Planar and Mid XO . . . ACTIVE . . .

Hi guys - I am anticipating an active XO between the subject tweeter and the following Mids:

  1. Dynavox - LY401F-M01 (on hand).
  2. FaitalPro - 5FE120-8 (on hand).
  3. Peerless - TPY05W08O0088 (on hand).
  4. RS100P-4 (Just now back in stock at PE - need to acquire yet).

Application is in drum recording room for jamming and live work at reasonable sound levels - nothing too demanding - mostly for listening.

I will be utilizing them in a MT config with a powered 12" sub-woofer for the bottom octave(s).

Any experience with these drivers would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Comments

  • Never mind, guys - I'll figure it out.
    Leaning towards a powered 12" sub XO'd at 150 to an RS180-4 in a vented/stuffed 0.4 cu ft box XO'd to the Dynavox - LY401F-M01 sealed with the PT2C-8 sitting on top of the stack pointed near my head.

    And now that I realize I am dealing with A 4-WAY; THE UNFINISHED PROJECT ACTUALLY FITS THIS APPLICATION.

  • after more EXPERIMENTATION I find that the Sub XO needs to be around 60 Hz (12 db/oct) to the MW and MW box size focused down around 100 Hz (slopes yet to be decided) in this 4-way.

  • I am trying to achieve a speaker playback response that more naturally favors percussion (drums) and their dynamics - after thinking this through further I realize that each drum's head diameter is sized for specific tones (frequencies) and expecting a 2 driver speaker to to reproduce the dynamics of each individual drum head to be a fools effort.

    Think about that for a bit . . .

    22" diameter loose tension bass drum goes to the sub/MW), 14" diameter tightly tension snare drum (goes to the MW/MR & Tweeter)- top and loose bottom heads (yes, there are two per drum cavity tuned complimentary to one another which = two distinct frequency ranges combined); an 8" tom-1, 10" tom-2, 12" tom-3 and a 16" tom-4.

    =)

  • Maybe this is a good justification for 8" and 10" midrange drivers? Look at an Eminence BETA-10CBMRA for an example. Match that with a good horn super tweeter for harmonics and maybe you will get the sound that you are looking for.

  • ^ excellent suggestion, Billet - I awoke thinking about larger speakers in undersized sealed cabinets and you post a closed back 10" midrange . . . =)

  • edited February 10

    Bill beat me to it. I was gonna say the larger cone area Pro drivers are the hot ticket for your application. I'd think with your subs playing the bottom 2 octaves a pair of Delta Pro 12A woofers crossed to a high quality compression driver would be super dynamic with lots of kick for your drum tracks. Snare hits would be insanely real. Also seems a natural for a full DSP crossover where you can time delay for the various times of flight, plus shelve, notch, boost, etc. Won't be a budget system but who wants those sissy little things these days anyway? I say burn all the NanoNeos and Overnight Sensations at the stake!!! LOL

    BilletSteve_Leerjj45
  • OK, guys - you got me looking at data for these pro speakers and this one will reach the sub in a small box and it is coax too--> https://www.parts-express.com/Eminence-Beta-10CX-10-Coaxial-Driver-290-502?quantity=2

    Nice cabinet design/application notes here too --> https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/more-info/290-502--eminence-beta-10cx-cabinet-design.pdf

    [with an eye on the "Beta10CXSmallsealedMidRangeCabinet" application/design notes].

    How about this CD to go with it as it will cross as low as 1.5 Khz --> https://www.parts-express.com/Selenium-D202Ti-1-Titanium-Horn-Driver-1-3-8-18-TPI-264-455?quantity=2

    Not sure I want to use horns but am open to reasoning concerning them over the combo above.

    Yeah - down with small drivers!

    =)

  • Too late - I ordered the above post components and will live with them in an active XO until I don't . . .

    =)

    6thplanetrjj45
  • edited February 12

    Looks like a nice combo to me. That Beta 10 looks pretty solid in a tiny 0.5 cu/ft box. I'd be tempted to start with a simple high pass filter and level shift on the tweeter and don't clip the Beta10's wings with a low pass filter. The higher efficiency may help reduce power compression. The Beta10 will need some break in time for best bass response, so don't panic when you hear it for the first time. The small coax horn may not do well at 1500 hertz, so higher might be nicer in this case.

    Steve_Lee
  • I am thinking of starting with a 2 Khz XO and possibly upwards of 2.7 Khz on the tweeter/CD based upon the Beta-10's peak.

    I WAS going to hi-pass the Beta-10 at around 60 Hz but you are suggesting letting it run full range . . . That would be simpler and its low end roll-off looks pretty smooth so crossing the sub is just a matter of bringing up its level to match the Beta-10 wherever it winds up sounding right . . . these won't see power over 100 W so they should be OK.

    Thanks for the clues and perspective, Bill!

    =)

  • After reconsidering your guidance (Billet) I realize that I misunderstood you.

    I suspect you mean to let the Beta-10 "fly" with the peak at 2.7 Khz, roll-off naturally and pad/shape the tweeter/CD instead?

  • Yes, that is actually what I meant to say. The peak at the upper end of the low freq driver appears to be relatively inoffensive and the overall response looks pretty smooth. You may have a opportunity to cover a fairly wide range with the low freq driver. This will keep the efficiency high at the risk of sounding too bright in the midrange.

    Steve_Lee
  • One thought you might want to consider. The Beta-10, being a 10 inch driver, will start to “beam” at relatively low frequencies while the tweeter will be omnidirectional. This directivity mismatch causes what is sometimes called midrange “bloom” and leads to poor off axis response (i.e. poor power and directivity responses). So the typical solution is to use a compression driver that can cross low enough before the woofer starts to beam. I attached the Beta-10’s directivity responses at 2700, 2000, 1500 and 1000 Hz. Each circle represents a 5 dB difference in output. YMMV.

    Steve_Lee
  • Looks like long shallow XO slopes (12 db/oct) between 1.5 ~ 2 Khz are in order for widest/flattest sound-field response at the loss of power handling (CD/Tweeter power limitation) with a possible peaking filter centered around 2.7 Khz if I am correctly understanding Ed_Perkins polar graphs for the Beta-10.

    Thanks for posting those, ED - big help for sure.

  • You guys got me me inspired to pull the unused OmniMic out and get it set up after I bought it over 2 years ago and it sat on a shelf all this time.

    The existing JBL car audio coaxials (XO'd in vented/stuffed 0.35 cu ft cabinets to the 12" powered sub) got an examination and a slight readjustment (too hot at 4.6 Khz but sound fabulous there) and I adjusted the FR to a flatter downward sloped response and hated it - sounds dead and lifeless but that was a great starting point for adjustments by ear. The OmniMic pointed me right at the problem frequencies.

    I also notice that a lot of what OmniMic points out as peaks are actually harmonics of the room . . . a little more complex to locate and correct but great data to have while adjusting EQ . . . using Equalizer APO - its all live and fairly responsive to adjustments - still have much to learn but it just reaffirms my belief to trust your ears over the data . . .

    These speakers have never sounded this detailed before - minor tweaks make so much difference!

    =)

  • I like to chop out the the room by reducing the gating to see what the speaker is doing first.

    Steve_LeeBrannigansLaw
     John H, thanks to JP I did get that email
  • The problem with that ^ for me is that I have a dedicated music room used for playing/recording drums/percussion and have other musicians in here sporadically who use the speakers as monitors. (Low ceiling, small room, round duct-work running over head all over the place (great diffusers!)

    Having been on a sound stage/jamming room with people playing flutes, keyboards/piano, vocalists, saxophones, etc is that I know what sounds natural from my perspective/physical environment/vantage point - I try to capture this audio perspective in my mixes and playbacks [like when some chick picks up a flute unexpectedly and lays into it in front of an old Sennheiser-MD mic over a small PA system (Chills up my spine)] - you never get it right on small speakers but can make it listenable - I just miss the attack/decay and aliveness when listening to recordings.

    I find it frustrating when I get a good mix on my "studio" Sony MDR-7506 "Professional" headphones that sounds quite passable on the Samba kit speakers in near field (very flat response curve) and then it sounds dead and boomy on a set of larger speakers - sound production for the masses is both an effort in futility and just saying to yourself - "This is good enough" and letting it go.

    At the end of the day I have to keep reminding myself WHO EXACTLY I am trying to satisfy with my mixes and playback sounds/speakers/FR.

    ME!!!

    You need to keep in ind that it just has to sound good to you on your system in your space - the sound engineers/techs did what they could to capture the sounds of the musicians instruments but there is no right or wrong playback system for any piece of produced music unless you are the mastering engineer fighting with the band over the mix - see what I mean?

    It's like politics . . .

    I love my current setup but it sux when playing back earlier mixed work of mine- everything played back from the TIDAL streaming media sounds damn fine with minor tweaks on the sub XO.

    That means that I suck at audio engineering or the speakers changed (and they did and I am still learning how to do this stuff) . . .

    NS10-M Studio monitors suck and they were the standard for mixing/recording studios for decades but hard to listen too.

    What is the current standard that all music is judged by these days?

    =)

    Your ears in your room.

    (Sorry for the rant/diatribe - I just keep chasing my tail . . . . just like everyone else and the bankers and politicians care not one bit about us or how it sounds . . .).

  • I've got the Beta-10CX's hung vertically now and running an Fs signal to them at 49 Hz.

    After bit of that ^ then changing to an audio track playback they seem to have a nice "snap" to them in free air in the mids/snare.

    More later - I'll let them run at 49 Hz overnight or a day and come back to this . . . I think they have potential in a small stuffed/tight box.

    I also Have a cheap Timpano TPT-DH175 that will cross/play as low as 1.3 Khz I can play with as well and a small horn to go with it . . .

  • @Billet said:
    Yes, that is actually what I meant to say. The peak at the upper end of the low freq driver appears to be relatively inoffensive and the overall response looks pretty smooth. You may have a opportunity to cover a fairly wide range with the low freq driver. This will keep the efficiency high at the risk of sounding too bright in the midrange.

    Looks like you were in the ballpark with your assessment - I am running the CX10 (MW) with a Bessel XO at 3500 Hz using the Mini DSP 4X10 to good effect.

    The Selenium 202 (CD Tweeter) is XO'd at 3200 Hz @ LR24db

    The magic is almost there - needs a bit more air/brilliance to make it smack yet. (EQ'ing with the mic didn't yeaild the response that I thought it should have - got it flat and down sloped after flattening each driver but had to deal with the room effects after combining them so my ears like them.

    5 Band Paraplegic EQ is kinda handicapping me VS using 31 band EQ but that's all this MiniDSP can do but I am very impressed with this thing.

    I cannot imagine trying to build a passive crossover for this set-up considering all the time I have put into it so far.

    I overstuffed the (ugly) cabinets and had to take about 1/2 of the pillow stuffing out to get the Q back to around .7 ~ .8 but it sounds punchy where it should now and the Sub Bass is just running wide-open with minor boost at 55 and 40 HZ to clean up the boominess.

    The problem with DSP is that the system is not transportable but, Oh well . . .

    The XO point between the CD and MW in the coax really changes the width of the sound-stage too.

    This is fun.

    :3

  • Did you measure the Q when the cabinet was overstuffed? I am very curious how much difference stuffing makes on the actual Q factor...

  • I did not measure - it just sounded too dead and lacked any punch - removing a bunch so the box was filled but no longer compressed gave the midbass back some life/depth.

    Still experimenting - every time I change songs/music I start redoing settings . . .

    =)

  • GOT IT!
    Its perfect now!! Sounds fantastic.
    The guys who chimed in with tutelage and direction were all spot-on. Thanks!!

    Its amazing how everything clicks once you experience what you are being told.
    I EQ'd with the mic about 2 ft from the Coaxial and about 15 degrees off axis and it all came together (this removed the room from the EQ).

    Love it! The Eminence CX10 is an awesome midbass/midrange driver and is the soul of the system right now - the Selenium 202Ti CD and 12" powered sub just sit on the fringes of the audio spectrum and fill-in the ends just right.

    In the end, there was very little that the CX10 needed done to it and very little in the way of XO/EQ required.

    Less IS more.

    Snapshot of FR graph and DSP settings to follow later for those interested.

    B)

    Billetrjj45
  • 1st ever (for me) SPL Measurement and snapshot using OmniMic:

    I cannot raise the droop at 6K so I suspect it is the CD response or the shallow horn causing it but it sounds good - just a little laid back where I would prefer more presence.

  • Spectrum graph seems to indicate what my ears hear concerning the 6KHz dip - it isn't very noticeable
    :

  • edited May 11

    Mwahahaha!

    If at 1st you don't succeed . . . . ;)

    I did not break-in the CD's (Selenium D202Ti) and after all this playing I was able to remove previous EQ and using the mic reapplied EQ to obtain the above result.

    Getting smarter every day . . .

    The D202Ti's are extremely smooth without sibilance or harshness at all - glad I took a chance on them - AWESOME.

    Thanks for your feedback guys.

    Now, what am I gonna do next . . . .

    6thplanetrjj45
  • For those with a Mini DSP 4x10HD (or compatible) DSP unit, I offer the configuration file below for your use and experimentation if so inclined.

    https://dropbox.com/s/zqgoqltzn5dylcr/SJL%20MiniDSP%20Config2%20-EQd%20-%20Eminence10CX.Selenium202Ti.Coax.Sub_5-11-2022.xml?raw=1

  • I tried posting the .XML file of the DSP settings and then a Dropbox link to same and this site will not allow either.

    Let me know if you want that data.

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