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Interesting article about electric cars

Electric Car-Owners Shocked: New Study Confirms EVs Considerably Worse For Climate Than Diesel Cars

Profile picture for user Tyler Durden
Mon, 04/22/2019 - 04:15

The Brussel Times reports that a new German study exposes how electric vehicles will hardly decrease CO2 emissions in Europe over the coming years, as the introduction of electric vehicles won't lead to a reduction in CO2 emissions from highway traffic.

According to the study directed by Christoph Buchal of the University of Cologne, published by the Ifo Institute in Munich last week, electric vehicles have "significantly higher CO2 emissions than diesel cars." That is due to the significant amount of energy used in the mining and processing of lithium, cobalt, and manganese, which are critical raw materials for the production of electric car batteries.


A battery pack for a Tesla Model 3 pollutes the climate with 11 to 15 tonnes of CO2. Each battery pack has a lifespan of approximately ten years and total mileage of 94,000, would mean 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometer (116 to 156 grams of CO2 per mile), Buchal said. Add to this the CO2 emissions of the electricity from powerplants that power such vehicles, and the actual Tesla emissions could be between 156 to 180 grams of CO2 per kilometer (249 and 289 grams of CO2 per mile).

German researchers criticized the fact that EU legislation classifies electric cars as zero-emission cars; they call it a deception because electric cars, like the Model 3, with all the factors, included, produce more emissions than diesel vehicles by Mercedes.

They further wrote that the EU target of 59 grams of CO2 per kilometer by 2030 is "technically unrealistic."

The reality is, in addition to the CO2 emissions generated in mining the raw materials for the production of electric vehicles, all EU countries generate significant CO2 emissions from charging the vehicles’ batteries using dirty power plants.

For true emission reductions, researchers concluded the study by saying methane-powered gasoline engines or hydrogen motors could cut CO2 emissions by a third and possibly eliminate the need for diesel motors.

"Methane technology is ideal for the transition from natural gas vehicles with conventional engines to engines that will one day run on methane from CO2-free energy sources. This being the case, the German federal government should treat all technologies equally and promote hydrogen and methane solutions as well."

So maybe Elon Musk's plan to save the world with electric cars is the biggest scam of our lifetime...



  • Back to horses....
  • They've been saying for years that the carbon footprint is higher on EVs, due to the methods of extracting the ore required for the batteries.
  • And people think that the charging energy that comes from the wall outlet is "green".... :rolleyes:
  • I actually just read that last night. Everyone knows that if saving the planet is the issue, we must pay more taxes. It is the only solution. We recently got hit with the Canada-wide carbon tax and that will cure all dumping in China. You're welcome, world. 
  • Before this becomes overtly political, I will remind you all of our Terms of Service.
    I have a signature.
  • edited April 2019
    We got hit with the "more" tax, they just happened to call this one Carbon, but it has nothing to do with the environment. Moving on..I think we're going to see some big advancements in battery tech in the next 5-10 years, but even at that, I think the world should have moved on to hydrogen fuel cell tech in cars, not batteries.

    In BC we only use clean electrons :)

    I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening.
  • Sorry if this thread prompts anyone to take political sides.  Not my intention at all.  Myself and my family do everything we can to be responsible.  We drive fuel efficeint cars not gas gusslers.  We recycle everything we can.  I just thought it was an interesting article.
  • edited April 2019
    The diesel generator to power a Tesla charger is funny. You know almost every time I see reference to the benefits of electric cars it's from the perspective of the consumer only, the savings on gas and operating cost of the vehicle. It's actually very rare to see the case made from a full environmental consideration, from the impact of manufacturing, to life cycle, recycling, long term availability of materials, etc. Unfortunate as it is, I think the greatest impact you can have on the environment that I see today is to simply not buy a new car, and keep your old junker going as long as possible. Less new cars being manufactured will have a huge impact, and with all the whiz bang tech going into new cars, I only see them having shorter lifespans that older cars without LCD screens and sensors everywhere. All this booming demand for greener vehicles is actually hurting the environment as people trade in perfectly good functioning automobiles.
    I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening.
  • I've seen studies that argue both ways, so, frankly, I'm not sure there's a clear answer to this. Sometimes the studies are clearly agenda driven, sometimes - as seems to be the case here - not.  As a very happy Chevy Volt and Bolt owner, I'm clearly biased. I do think that 150k km is way too short for expected battery life given modern battery management systems (such as are on the Teslas and the Bolt). Also, when mine are no longer useful for my cars, I plan to convert them to DIY powerwalls, not junk them.  They should be good for a lot more use that way. I do hope that a means of recycling them is in place when they are no longer suitable for that, but I expect that to be 8 years or so from now, so there's a good chance. Both of my cars were replacements for vehicles that were no longer road-worthy.  I hope to never buy an ICE vehicle again.
  • I will add that a Tesla experiences roughly 1/3 the tire life of its gasoline counterparts due to the instant torque levels from a full stop.
  • e6zion said:
    I will add that a Tesla experiences roughly 1/3 the tire life of its gasoline counterparts due to the instant torque levels from a full stop.

    That's the one thing that interest me in electric cars, 0-60 and 1/8 mile speeds.  I've always liked the 60s VW bus and drop side pick ups and the electric conversion makes these usable.
     John H, thanks to JP I did get that email
  • edited April 2019
    I'm still pulling for natural gas powered automobiles.  Maybe the gas and oil companies can't make enough $ of of NG so it got squashed.  I suppose it it easier to just burn it off in the oil fields.
  • Storage and transfer of LNG is its biggest shortcoming.  It's a cryogenic liquid.
  • Copy that PWRRYD.  That does make sense.
  • edited April 2019
    You may need a dangerous goods permit for a natural gas vehicle, and it may be explosive in a crash. However a bank of 1000 lithium cells in parallel is also a problem when damaged...
    I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening.
  • Same with gas.  We had a propane powered ford pickup in the late 70s.  It had its draw backs and was converted back to gas. 
  • LNG is used for some long haul trucks on select routes (those with infrastructure to support it)
  • When I did a report on it in high school over 20 years ago, Hydrogen was also a viable solution with water as the only exhaust.
  • Procuring hydrogen is another story though.
  • edited April 2019
    Our buses in Cleveland have mostly switched to CNG. Not sure how green that tech is, I only know they got a grant from the government to implement it.
    = Howard Stark: "This is the key to the future. I'm limited by the technology of my time, but one day you'll figure this out."
  • Fuel cell tech (hydrogen) has been around for a while.  It does have a few drawbacks: One,  it gives off harmful NO2 as a byproduct. Two, the impression of a Hindenburg automobile scares the public. Three (and perhaps the biggest reason) is cost in manufacturing and distribution. Four, the manufacturing would still require fossil fuels for the energy to produce hydrogen fuel, offsetting some of the benefit.  We simply don't have the infrastructure in place to make it work. 

    Anyway, about quality midranges... Anyone see that new SB Satori dome?
  • Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles have existed in the world for some time now. I recommend watching Top Gear Season 12 Episode 7 from 2008, they did a spot on the Honda Clarity Hydrogen fuel cell car.

    Here's the Satori dome:

    There's also a pretty little SB wideband driver available, probably at Madisound soon, but currently available at Solen for only CAD$15.

    I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening.
  • Dunno. From the $ standpoint of view, hybrids or ev just don't make any sense. My old 4-cylinder Nissan is on it's last legs and I've been looking at various options. Looks like a small 4 cylinder sedan with 5 or 6 speed  manual is still the most reasonable thing to get.
  • I agree Roman.  I bought a used company car a few years ago.  It's a 2013 Nissan Altima.  Lots of cabin space, fairly large trunk, and a 4 cylinder 2.5 L that gets 36 mpg on the highway and a reasonable 28+ in the city.  

    Now my E85 burning race car.... well that's a whole different story  :#
  • edited April 2019
    My daily driver is a 2002 Corolla with 136K on it.  Super cheap to pilot. 

    Nice looking SB mid dome.  The unwrapping video is great too, thanks for sharing.
  • E85 is race gas for the boosted that can be found at the local gas station.  Tunes out with more torque than c16 and almost the same peak hp numbers.     
  • True.  But it can be inconsistant from station to station and week to week.  I test every jug of E85 that I get.  My goto station is always 81 to 87 %.
  • Not sure about your state but here in Missouri there is a winter and summer blend so anything from ~84% to ~70% depending on the time of year and the mixture in the bulk tank.  Bulk tanks are another horror story for ethanol.      
  • e85 was supposed to be the new clean fuel but due to what it takes to make the stuff, it may or may not be any better for the environment, just like that electric car. 
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