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An encounter with Inductor Saturation

Just this past week I encountered something that I'd never experienced before, and through researching it came to the conclusion that inductor saturation is a real thing and what may have worked for a few days won't necessarily work forever.  Follow along if you will:

I've been putting the finishing touches on the Iowa 2016 project.  Through the initial PCD modeling the software suggested a 3.5mH inductor along with a healthy cap for the woofer roll-off at about 375hz.  Upon application it sounded just about right.  In fact the bass was strong enough to investigate the possibility of a sealed enclosure.  After a couple more weeks of experimenting and modeling it was determined that a sealed enclosure was the right way to go.  I dis-assembled the project, closed off the original port, then began the finishing phase.  Little did I know that an electronic storm was brewing in the crossover.

About three weeks ago the cabinets were finished, the crossovers soldered and installed, and I happily anticipated the hearing final product.  I popped in the test disk and fired 'em up.  The first indication that something was amiss was a grungy sound, apparently from one of the woofers.  I was certain I'd blown one of the venerable Usher 8955's.  Fortunately I had a spare and after swapping out the 'bad one' tried again.  This time I noticed the same crunchy sound coming from both woofers.  It sounded like the drivers were being blown out of alignment and were exceeding their listed 5.5 mm of xmas, yet I was not applying much power from the amp. Something was very, very, wrong here. (BTW, if you're interested the Signal Path is a Panasonic DMP-BDT500 into an Emotiva USP-1 and XPA-2.)

My initial thought was a mis-wired crossover (but two mis-wired??)  yet upon checking the wiring appeared fine.  Next up, verify the enclosure specs because...well, I didn't know why; I was grasping at straws. Why was something that worked fine two weeks ago now completely messed up?  A driver with a Vas of 133 liters in a sealed 37 liter enclosure is just about ideal (once again, according to PCD).  But I couldn't think of another reason that these seemingly fine drivers were behaving so inappropriately.  So I took a leap of faith and re-ported the enclosures with the original 2x8" ports.  They worked before, so why not now?  Unfortunately the result didn't change - same grungy/crunchy output from the woofers.  Nothing about this made sense. 

After ruminating on this for a couple days with no fresh ideas I consulted Chris Roemer, but he had no answer, and a 15 minute conversation with JR yielded no new insight either.  Back to the drawing board - it's time to get creative.  So I swapped in a different pair of drivers just to see what might happen.  No change.  I tried a 10" subwoofer too because at this point there was nothing to lose, with no noticeable difference.  The old adage of doing the same thing over and over kicked in, so it was time for a change in direction.  At this point the only thing that made sense was to reverse engineer the crossover, in other words start replacing pieces part-by-part in hopes of finding....something?  The thing is that all the parts were brand new, so what were the odds that I'd have two flawed pieces causing the same issue with both drivers?  But sure enough, the first part I swapped out held the answer. 

Late last winter I purchased some of PE's closeout inductors - those little 'bobbin' inductor selling for about $6.00 each.  The intention was to use them in a couple of small surround speakers for a friend. Apparently they are woefully inadequate for long-term application on a robust woofer.  A switch from the closeout bobbin to a full size Jansen inductor immediately resolved the problem.  No grunge and no crunchy, just pure sound.  Problem resolved!  (Celebratory beer consumed!)

After resolving this issue and researching inductor saturation I discovered that a small, ferromagnetic core, inductor can have an extremely low saturation point that can lead to abrupt saturation (versus gradual saturation), signal/voltage clipping, and odd harmonics.  Apparently that's what was happening here. Who knew you could ruin these little guys with a couple volts of electricity?  

Lesson learned?  No more tiny inductors on beefy woofers!

jr@macJasonPFacekennykgreywardenThumperTomJavadS

Comments

  • Thanks for sharing this Marty. I've never run into this problem, but I've always bought the overpriced fancy inductors. P-Core, Erse Ferrite, etc. I'd think if you are saturating those buyouts as such low power, I imagine their cores are in question for quality.
    = Howard Stark: "This is the key to the future. I'm limited by the technology of my time, but one day you'll figure this out."
  • I never use anything smaller than the 18ga air core Jantzen and Madisound inductors for this reason.  If I need solid core inductors, Erse Super Q are my go to.
  • Cores don't stay saturated.
  • So, hopefully the li'l buyouts are fine to use in a space-saving application with small drivers in a desktop TM or baby 3-way?
  • Yes for sure.  My latest desktop project using the little famous maker 3" (DS90-8) hits its' excusion limits with less than 10 W.  I'm sure those buyout inductors will be just fine at that level.
  • I used some "buyouts" in my "itty bitty" 3ways.
    Turn2
    ............. could you hum a few bars.
  • I've only built two sets of passive crossovers, used jantzen for both, almost bought a handful of each of those inductors, glad I didn't. Like Craig said, they don't stay saturated, but you probably got two from a bad batch, reason they were so cheap.
    deadhorse - leviathan - harbinger - shockwave (wip)
  • kennyk said:
    I used some "buyouts" in my "itty bitty" 3ways.
    Actually, when I referred to "baby 3-way" that is the exact design I had in mind. I have some buyouts for the xo, including unwinding a few in the midrange section.
  • I'll need to check my parts stash for that when I get home, but I believe I was going to unwind these to 2.5mH.

    http://www.parts-express.com/35mh-20-gauge-ferrite-bobbin-core-inductor--269-2134

  • Kenny your link takes me to a search of images, safemode off, of the word "itty". You might imagine the result
    kennykFacegreywarden
    = Howard Stark: "This is the key to the future. I'm limited by the technology of my time, but one day you'll figure this out."
  • Check that. I am going to unwind THESE to 2.5mH.

    http://www.parts-express.com/30mh-23-gauge-ferrite-bobbin-core-inductor--269-2260

    And, uh...yeah, that search went awry a bit.
    kennyk
  • Turn2 said:
    Check that. I am going to unwind THESE to 2.5mH.

    http://www.parts-express.com/30mh-23-gauge-ferrite-bobbin-core-inductor--269-2260

    And, uh...yeah, that search went awry a bit.

    How did I miss those. :/


    ............. could you hum a few bars.
  • edited September 2016
    !
  • A follow up on the Gambit project:

    Chuck was helpful in solving and issue with woofer bloom these experienced.  With the center-point of the Usher 8955A eight inches above the floor I was experiencing an annoying low frequency howl - floor bounce.  He suggested lifting the center of the woofer up six inches or so and see what happens.  Chuck for the Win!  The howl is gone and the soundstage blossomed!  One of my test tracks has an annoying howl to begin with and in its original form the speaker would drive me out of the room.  Now, it's gone.  Thanks Chuck! 
  • You do not have to be pumping a lot of wattage. Big woofs can generate substantial back EMF power that can really screw will cheesy inductors. Once an inductor hits its static field and that field collapses due to a polarity change, a huge voltage spike occurs, add that to the instantaneous current coming from a woofer (generator) and you can bump well over saturation point, even for an instant. You can get very strange noises as you heard. pops, clicks, what presents as grinding or a sound like talking into a fan when it is running. 

    18AWG or higher, trusted brands are the way to go.
  • Excellent! Glad it worked out. How much work was it to move it up?
  • Just to show you how little time I've had for this, all I did was stick a 5-inch riser under each speaker.  To truly resolve the issue will mean redoing the lower enclosure and raising the woofer up by 4-6 inches.  That'll also require some re-jiggling of the crossover I suspect.
  • You do not have to be pumping a lot of wattage. Big woofs can generate substantial back EMF power that can really screw will cheesy inductors. Once an inductor hits its static field and that field collapses due to a polarity change, a huge voltage spike occurs, add that to the instantaneous current coming from a woofer (generator) and you can bump well over saturation point, even for an instant. You can get very strange noises as you heard. pops, clicks, what presents as grinding or a sound like talking into a fan when it is running. 

    18AWG or higher, trusted brands are the way to go.
    The inductor issue was resolved long ago, however you're correct that the little closeout PE inductors are not up to the challenges of high-end crossovers.
  • Methinks me doth need pay attention to post dates...
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