Capacitors, choices

tajanes

To get the modeled capacitance value for a tweeter hp filter (3rd order) I’ll need to parallel two caps.  I set-up the Dayton’s for my initial mock up, but for the final crossover I’ve found as possible alternatives;

Jantzen  Z-Standard Caps  total $8.01, or

Dayton Precision Caps $6.53, or

Jantzen Z-Silver + Audyn Double Layer MP Foil $40.90  

So, of the first two options, thoughts ?  

 

Is the final combo at 5 to 6x cost (mixing out of necessity to get to target capacitance per values offered) a 'sound' choice? If mixing is a issue, could go with 3 of the Jantzen Z-Silvers (pushing $60) ?

For the second capacitor in the filter, several options are available to ~ mirror /match either of the choices above.

thx

Kornbread

Don't know what the others think of them, but I've been buying the red mkp caps off ebay and they are considerably less than the comparable dayton brand.        

jr@mac

Kornbread said:

Don't know what the others think of them, but I've been buying the red mkp caps off ebay and they are considerably less than the comparable dayton brand.        

Nothing wrong with those caps. Been using them for years.

Wolf

Audyn Q4 for the best bang/buck.

Z-Standards are also good, and small for real estate purposes.

Silvers are splendid, spacious, and really have a massive soundstage. The Audyn Plus a bit less so, so they could balance out if you like the qualities. The Silvers don't work with every driver, but the Plus really has no bad character to rain on a driver's parade.

tajanes

Wolf- thoughts on mixing?
I could pair up the Audyn Foils with the Jantzen Stds for around $20, but when these are placed in parallel does it become the lowest common denominator or ???

Kornbread

That is a good question.  Some say that pairing a small poly with a large npe gives you the sound of a poly, so ...    

Tom_S

Wolf built the test jig comparing caps years ago and auditioned it at DIY gatherings. I don't know how many claimed to hear a difference - or how many were fibbing to protect their Golden Ear status. I sure could not tell them apart, at least in that setting. It would be interesting to set up a blind test. Have your wife (or other unbiased person) flip the switches and keep track. I've been thinking about building a test/demo like Wolf did, but none of my designs are really solid enough to be a platform for something like that.

The Audyn Q4s are good enough for me...and the pricing is very reasonable. If the price difference is $32 between the Q4 and anything fancier, I would be looking to upgrade the tweeter instead of the cap(s). But I think you're working with a coaxial, so that probably isn't an option. 

jhollander

I use to have a 20% rule, $200 in drivers $40 in x-o parts.  Now it's mostly whatever I have, with cheaper poly on the the woofer and Audyns on the tweeter.

tajanes

thx 

PWRRYD

Tom_S said:

Wolf built the test jig comparing caps years ago and auditioned it at DIY gatherings. I don't know how many claimed to hear a difference - or how many were fibbing to protect their Golden Ear status. I sure could not tell them apart, at least in that setting. It would be interesting to set up a blind test. Have your wife (or other unbiased person) flip the switches and keep track. I've been thinking about building a test/demo like Wolf did, but none of my designs are really solid enough to be a platform for something like that.

The Audyn Q4s are good enough for me...and the pricing is very reasonable. If the price difference is $32 between the Q4 and anything fancier, I would be looking to upgrade the tweeter instead of the cap(s). But I think you're working with a coaxial, so that probably isn't an option. 

I fully concur Tom.

Wolf

I do not tend to mix caps much, as I'd rather be sure they'll cohabitate together without arguments. ClarityCap for example, does not in my experience like caps from other manufacturers. Keeping it in the family usually means they will be okay together. 

Then there is the <10% rule of added cap, that will allow the trimming to value and usually be okay sonically.

One time I paralleled a mylar with a premium poly, and it sounded like words were spoken twice at offset time of origination. Only a select few believed me that it even happened, and the "measurement" groupies told me that it should be easy to measure. I could not get a measurement to show it, so some skeptics then didn't believe me either. I would not report it if it didn't occur.

I'll be doing a bypass cap test on the EMP TMM build coming up, as the super clean tweeter should make it audible.

AdamM3

I would echo what most others are saying. I find the audyn Q4's are a decent cap for the money.

dynamo

Gentlemen, I just want to commend all of you as this is the most civilized capacitor thread I have ever seen. Speaks worlds as to the reasonableness of the members. 

I tend to find myself enjoying experimenting with subjective qualities of different caps. That said, I also have found the Q4 caps to be quite listenable as well as a good build quality (except the label was printed with a dry erase marker! - cover it with clear tape). 

PWRRYD

My personal opinion/experience:  with the quality level of drivers that I'm using (very good drivers but not top notch) and the shear number of designs I do per year, the Audyn Q4 caps fall right in the sweet spot for me.  Sure I could probably spend twice as much or much more than I do on more expensive caps and coils and maybe hear at best a 1% improvement.  I'd rather spend that same extra money on better drivers and maybe hear a 2% + improvement

I totally disagree with the idea that a 1 uF or smaller poly cap is going to make any size NPE sound better.  I have no problem using NPE caps for larger values.  Some say a NPE should never be used in the "series" position, only in a "shunt" position.  Rubbish IMO.

In a nutschell DIYspeaker building Narcissists are exactly that.

tajanes

Wolf said: I'll be doing a bypass cap test on the EMP TMM build coming up, as the super clean tweeter should make it audible.

Looking forward to your results

kenrhodes

imho I if someone wanted a way to hear the difference in capacitors they would build a cmoy headphone amp and swap their choice of capacitor in there.
  Using headphones eliminates a lot of the room and placement issues that plague most A/B testing. One could even leave the capacitors alligator clipped in and hot swap them with no other changes. The cmoy and RA-1 headphone amplifiers use the capacitor as an input filter so the load of the headphone driver should have very little effect on the testing.
  Like all things in life this is still full of compromises but think it would still offer good data with minimum investment.

brek81

How many people here do voicing primarily mono vs stereo?  It would be quite easy to setup an ABx test mono

(Just a whiskey drinking asshole who cant hear shit)

jhollander

I aways voice in mono.  Years ago I built one speaker will all NPE then another will all Poly.  That was my first experience with cap differences

PWRRYD

jhollander said:

I aways voice in mono.  Years ago I built one speaker will all NPE then another will all Poly.  That was my first experience with cap differences

I always build both speakers and prototype crossovers and voice in stereo.  Never tried mono.  I think JR also voices in mono.  What are the benefits?

John, when you say you built a speaker with all NPE I assume you mean even the small caps in the tweeter's filter.  Just for the fun of it?  FWIW I've never used a NPE for a cap under 33 uF.  I've never used a poly over 47 uF.  That's the parsimony point for me personally.

6thplanet

Since I build some "weird" speakers, I usually build one and play with it till I think it's worth going stereo.

Ed_Perkins

I've always done mono because it's easier to change one crossover versus two.  Call me lazy.

dynamo

Mono as I don’t have enough spare parts and alligator clips to do 2ch.

rjj45

I always measure and voice with one speaker. Then when it's good to go, build the second crossover and do some (usually) pro forma stereo evaluation. Several times the resistance of the alligator clip jumpers has bitten me, so now I double check that before BAFO version.

jr@mac

Ditch the alligator clip leads. 

dynamo

jr@mac said:

Ditch the alligator clip leads. 

What do you recommend as a replacement and why no love for the clips?

jr@mac

The leads need ditched, clips are fine. I buy heavy duty ones, and use them to clamp component leads together. Point to point action. 

Especially the cheap leads most places sell, they have very high resistance. Took me a few years to figure out why I had to spend so much time changing things after initial voicing, and it turns out my addiction to leads was the issue. Now it is alligator clips, wire nuts, on very rare occasion a 12awg piece of wire. 

Poor testing methodology leads to extra work on the back end of any project, and imho is one of the several reasons many designers spend weeks or months voicing a design. 

PWRRYD

I try to solder as many of the prototype connections as possible.  I don't tightly twist the leads together, just have them make physical contact then solder them.  When I have certain parts I know I will be swapping values in and out, I use some alligator clips I made myself (soldered not crimped) from higher quality clips and 16 gauge wire.

dynamo

Thanks guys. Makes sense. I am one of those people that end up spending a month voicing after final assembly!

PWRRYD

This is what I use:

https://www.amazon.com/iExcell-Alligator-Crocodile-Clamps-Plastic/dp/B01B647W3G/ref=sr_1_13?crid=23J7HTJNZPALM&keywords=alligator+clips+electrical&qid=1585060493&sprefix=alligator+cl%2Caps%2C144&sr=8-13

jr@mac

That is very similar to the ones I use as well. 

jhollander

My prototype x-os are built on a board with a 12 space euro terminal block. The x-o parts are all soldered but not twisted.  I use scrap wire to hook up power and grounds as the x-o gets pretty large and spread out.