Mixing capacitors (types and/or structures) in parallel

tajanes

(If there was a specific prior thread on this- my apologizes for my search capabilities)

While we all may have mixed and matched caps in parallel in initial workout designs (what we had in the box at the time), has anyone played around with voicing different combos? I.e. not only in mixing brands / basing a build on differing capacitor structures/designs, but on the affects of placing say a film & foil (i.e. a Fostex or Audiocap) alongside a quality metallized poly (thinking for tweeter/mid)? Seeing that litt’l green mylar on the ASC got me thinking...

For any tennis nuts in the group, my preference when I string my rackets is to use a natural gut for the mains with poly (Alu pwr) on the crosses. While not just less expensive then stringing with all gut, I clearly prefer the hybrid.

Before I go out and purchase a few expensive trial film & foils, I thought I’d toss this out here.
Thx

Kornbread

I've ran across websites where the author gushed about the ability to mix a small expensive cap with a larger cheap cap and retain the sound of the expensive cap. I know some will disagree, but do feel that different caps made a noticeable difference in the sound of the diy tube pres I've built.

Wolf

I have mixed feelings about all of the 'mixing' endeavors. I have had 2 different caps paralleled:

• cause smear, or the sound of 2 sources with one delayed, Mundorf Supreme and Cornell Mylar.
• like large NPE and metallized poly or mylar together tend to work okay. The ESR is lower in the bandwidth above that of the smaller capacitor rolloff. This can be beneficial, but larger poly caps are required the lower the bandwidth goes to keep the midrange sounding 'open'. This is easily noticeable.
• cause the overall quality to degrade. Russian Polystyrene trim caps to make value in a larger ASC oil polypropylene literally made the speaker sound distorted and broken. Once removed, problem dissipated. Mylar trim caps in same scenario are of no consequence. I paralleld a 0.01uF oil cap, and could not discern it added or removed.
• Plastic Capacitors LQ mylar high voltage oil film and foil with both applications of bypassing with 0.1uF capacitors. Russian Silver Mica and PIO types were used here. The Mica sounded clean when added, but also made them a touch bright. The PIO was more subdued, but I did not care for the resulting effect. It sounded like it lost air and added a bit of grit.
• Using 2 of the same brand name or of the same make and model has never been detrimental. I honestly believe ClarityCap like those of the same make at times. I've had weird results with combos of differing makes. I have used 3 models of Jantzen together without issues, paired others with same results.
• In the Deuteriums project back in 2008, and the NPE/Dayton poly combo was not bad sounding and saved cost on cheap drivers.

This is all I can remember at this point.

kenrhodes

I think if you wanted to try to prove the value of higher quality caps you would need a very high quality LC meter that can run distortion test. For a high quality cap the distortion should be VERY low. We also know that the cap should be measured at different frequencies. ESR measurements should be taken as well.
Uglywoofer had run some high level test on a few caps at his job if I remember correctly.
What I have seen is that you quickly jump into the land of diminishing returns within caps that have the same parameters. CSS did a A/B combo with really high end crossover components and good crossover components. I'll let them chime in on their thoughts.

tajanes

@Wolf said:
cause smear, or the sound of 2 sources with one delayed, Mundorf Supreme and Cornell Mylar

That would be an issue worth avoiding. Possibly measurable in REW showing a delayed impulse response.

@Kornbread said:
I've ran across websites where the author gushed about the ability to mix a small expensive cap with a larger cheap cap and retain the sound of the expensive cap.

I wouldn't quite expect (as with that author) of turning a stone into gold, more along the lines of a hybrid of traits of a couple different higher quality designs. Of course, only if possible w/o Wolf's comment of potential smearing? We all may have our favorite caps, just curious as to experiences.

Thanks

PWRRYD

I was at DIY Iowa (12-13? years ago) when Ben did his cap test. So I can say from personal experience that my ears could definitely hear differences between the caps. I admit I wasn't able to pick out which was which every single time but there is no question in my mind that there are subtle differences between caps that have the same uF value.
That said I have tried the "bypass cap" thing many times. I have measured the FR and distortion with my mic (objective) and listened with my ears (subjective, although not a double blind). Never have I measured or heard any improvement or failure adding a small value, high quality, film or foil cap across a much larger mylar (think Madisound buyout 10 uF caps) or NPE cap. So I won't waste time with it. If the project has cheap drivers it doesn't warrant expensive caps or other xo parts, and the vice-versa.

Wolf

Correct, Craig, it was October 2010.

I can also say that I have not been able to measure much in terms of FR differences. I still have the components that did the time smear should anyone ever want to hear it. Impulse test showed nothing, but it was clearly audible hearing 2 origins just like an echo.

tajanes

I’m looking at, initially per software, a 12uF / 18uF, so film & foil not in the running. But there looks to be plenty of wayz to spend $$$ for my quasi-first order series Xover for the coax

Wolf

My vote is for ASC 386X or 387X. Second vote would be Jantzen Superiors, but those are not available large enough.

tajanes

@Wolf said:
My vote is for ASC 386X or 387X. Second vote would be Jantzen Superiors, but those are not available large enough.

I do like the Jantzen's, and you are correct on size limit. ClarityCap CSA's do get there w/o paralleling caps. I'll noodle the ASC's.

Wolf- how did you come across using those?

Wolf

Back a few years ago, both Tony Gee and Parts Connexion were touting them highly and they were not that expensive. Since the 2010 cap test was for lower priced components, these fit the bill, and I tried and liked them- even better than the Clarity SA of the time.

tajanes

Maybe go with stacks of 26 to 38 0.47’s orange drop caps (Polyester and polypropylene film/foil capacitors) ?
Now that might be interesting? The guitar guys may be onto something ???

Wolf

Polycarbonate (MKC) film caps are good too.