Build Precursor, "Hancocks"...

Wolf

This will be another VersaBox build, using the SIG180-4 and AMTHR-4.

Just measured the T/S for the pair of SIG180-4 drivers I received as a door prize in August.
I am pretty surprised at how far off some of these numbers are.....

And the AMT, just as they really should be...

a4eaudio

Looking forward to hearing your opinions on the AMT.
I posted my measurements of the SIG180 in the thread mis-titled SUB180. My Qms was closer to mfg than yours but my Fs was higher.

Wolf

They were straight out of the box that high Qms too. Normally, high Qms means less mechanical damping. This means that even if I broke in the suspension it would not result in a lower number.

Wolf

Just realized I was an idiot. I did not remove the plastic on the backplate. I'll redo...

Steve_Lee

Was the pole vent covered up with a plastic film?

Wolf

Yes, they come with a film sheet over the embossed backplate.

a4eaudio

@Wolf , have you taken any distortion measurements of the tweeter yet or any kind of listening? If these will reach down to 2.2Khz-ish I might pick up a pair with the current Black Friday discount. (I know the PE write-up says they can go to 1.8Khz but that looks sketchy to me.)

Wolf

I hope to do some of that this early next week. I'm off for the next 2. It may be nude surrounded by damping quasi IB on the floor, but I plan to see what I get.

Wolf

Okay...

Finally got some retesting done, as well as some quasi-measurements.

I measured the T/S with the film off of the pole this time, so those are truly valid. Those specs did not change that much from the previous.

I also measured the woofers in a very holey box with lots of fill, surface mounted, sitting on the floor facing up. This is not quite ground plane being the box was against the 'wall', and the mic was about 30" from the woofer on axis in the leaky box. It is also not free field. This means the baffle step is partially compensated for in the measurements.

Here are the SIG180-4, samples 1 and 2:

The AMTs were measured with a series 27uF cap at about a meter on axis distance, with damping surrounding the frame, to get a quasi-IB measurement set. This means that baffle step has as a majority not been removed from the FR measurements like an in-box measurement would be. However, these are linkely not to be seen as in-wall or IB completely, as losses are still likely. I took HD measurements as well, and it really seems to be well behaved with second order being dominant but at a respectable -40dB from reference down to 2k easily.

Here are the AMTHR-4 measurements as defined, samples 1 and 2:

Hopefully this is useful for you.

Dirk

The line weights and chart smoothing on the PE spec sheet for the AMT really downplay the 4khz hump. That's annoying. So, 2nd order electrical HP & two notches?

Wolf

I don't know how real that is, being how I measured it. The Wavecors show a 4k peak too, so it could be how i did these. The HD is at least relevant. Remember, in a standard stand mount style cab, the baffle step and edge diffraction will change things quite dramatically. A damped 3rd order electrical with dual resistors can likely remedy quite a bit.

Wolf

Of note, 13650/4000=~3.4", and this would equate to a perimeter of the fixture I was using, in both left and right directions. It very easily could be a nonvalid diffraction peak here. I look forward to redoing them in cab when I get there and seeing if it is still there. I can measure the Wavecors in situ in the next few days, and see if it remains for those.

tktran

For non Omnimic users; can you remind us what the colours are?

My guess is Red is H2 and purple is H3? What about green and aqua?

jhollander

I'm red green color blind so I start from right to left with the first line H1, second H2, third H3, etc. After H3 I loose interest.

Dirk

H2 = red, H3 = magenta, H4 = green, H5 = cyan

You can also tell because the high frequency cutoff is lower for each one

tktran

Ah yes. Then H2 is impressively low (like other hard cone drivers) but H3 is not (like other drivers without a copper shorting sleeve)

The impedance sweep- was that done in free air? What do think is the cause of the impedance blip around 500Hz?
Also, how do you suppose that got rid of the high frequency peaks typical in a hard cone driver? The impedance blip is there at 3Khz, but the mountains have been turned in into valleys, which is great...

Final question, is it better than the similarly priced, Danish Scan-Speak 18W/4534g00 released over a decade ago?

Wolf

H3 is still -45dB. Not really an issue.
Yes, free air Z zweep.
Doesn't appear to show in the FR, so not sure I care.
Brian Myers said in the interview with Toid that a different former material than aluminum was used so that the resonances didn't telegraph through to coil and damped them a bit more than usual.
Not sure I care whether it is or isn't.

tktran

Yes probably no interest for the end consumer

For me, it’s very interesting to see innovations in the surround in the Purifi 1st generation Ushindi PTT drivers, “polyimide” (voice coil) formers” in the Dayton Signature Series, plastic spiders in the B&W FST, and polymer baskets in the KEF Blade/Reference META.

It seems all the moving parts in a transducers can be targets for innovation, particularly now that we can also do a optimisation of geometry in software, with all the modern FEM/BEM simulation tools.

You lucky guys get to buy and try everything left right and centre. But shipping these things to OzStraya costs more than the product itself;

so I’ll save my shitsvillian micropesos and hop on the bandwagon when the next generation of Dayton drivers give a best in class -60 to 65 dB H3 for ~94dB @1m

DrewsBrews

You'll have plenty of time to save.

tktran

Err… do you know something I don’t?

Will I need to wait another decade before Dayton decides to put some copper in the motor?

It’s no wonder we have to Do It Yourself…

hifiside

Can I ask about where you at in Australia?> @tktran said:

Yes probably no interest for the end consumer

For me, it’s very interesting to see innovations in the surround in the Purifi 1st generation Ushindi PTT drivers, “polyimide” (voice coil) formers” in the Dayton Signature Series, plastic spiders in the B&W FST, and polymer baskets in the KEF Blade/Reference META.

It seems all the moving parts in a transducers can be targets for innovation, particularly now that we can also do a optimisation of geometry in software, with all the modern FEM/BEM simulation tools.

You lucky guys get to buy and try everything left right and centre. But shipping these things to OzStraya costs more than the product itself;

so I’ll save my shitsvillian micropesos and hop on the bandwagon when the next generation of Dayton drivers give a best in class -60 to 65 dB H3 for ~94dB @1m

tktran

Yes you may. But if you’re wondering whether it’s urban, suburban, regional or remote; it doesn’t seem to matter. PE has always had very high shipping rates to Oz.

Here’s are the options for a pair of Sig180, to Melbourne in the state of Victoria. You may not have heard of it; but it’s the 2nd biggest city in Oz. 600 miles south west to the biggest city of Sydney.

jr@mac

@tktran said:
Err… do you know something I don’t?

Will I need to wait another decade before Dayton decides to put some copper in the motor?

It’s no wonder we have to Do It Yourself…

I think he was implying that Dayton isn't going to bother trying to crack the high-end market. Again. They have released two very, very nice driver lines and both times they went nowhere. Three if you count the old Euro series. So yeah, complaining about Dayton focusing on their core business is just wasting your time.

tktran

To be clear, I’m not complaining. I’m trying to understand.

But what is Dayton’s core business?
Offering products based on expired patents made by the cheapest labour possible?

And what is the “high-end” market. Brand image, historical/legacy reputation, consumer perception/deception, marketing and fancy materials?

You probably know that it doesn’t cost anything to put a copper sleeve in the gap. If Tymphany can do it with their TC line drivers and SB with their standard line drivers, and these things cost less than $50 retail, why can’t/won’t Dayton? Apart from artificial market segmentation, I don’t understand. Perhaps @hifiside can illuminate me.

Or do people not care about distortion?

So why do buy a 10” Dayton Sig 270 for $130 when you can buy an English or American made driver for 50% more?

Do we want to buy local and keep jobs and manufacturing and home? Or are we going to continue buying and sending our money overseas?

Or has that ship sailed?

American Factory the documentary

jr@mac

Daytons business is their business, I'm not quite sure why you are beating this horse?

tktran

The Euro, Esoteric, and Epique range were all overpriced and that is why they failed, IMHO.

Since when is discussing what’s exciting, or not exciting about a driver, beating a dead horse? I sense some defensiveness, but I may be wrong.

But we don’t have any skin in the game, and this is not PE board, so can’t we critique a driver, the good and the bad?

Or stop explaining why despite the innovation in the plastic VC former, this driver leaves a lot on the table, and combined with PE’ shipping, offers me nothing.

I’ll stop “complaining”.

Thank you for providing independent data, Ben!

a4eaudio

Or continue the conversation in a thread like the "New products" thread rather than wolf's build thread.

tktran

Yes apologies for threadcrapping, if this was perceived as such. I did not intend to criticise @Wolf ’s build.

@Admin please feel free to move my posts the Dayton signature thread.

I found this in Hard Data, and was curious by the snappy Hancocks title.

Wolf

I do not feel these SIG180 drivers leave a lot on the table. I feel they are a solid value for the features and measurements. -45dB HD top to bottom is actually quite good.
And to say it, I did/do not feel the Euro, Eso, and Epique were over priced at all. High priced for solid quality, but not over priced.
Now back to the Hancocks, a name wrought from the relationship to signatures as we know them.

Wolf

Modeled the box, the tentative 15ltr Versabox tuned to 47Hz, and it looks really good!

Xmax is good at 102dB until 38Hz, and the port mach is fine with the 2" port.

EDIT- Yes, I double verified the port dimension. Took the snap too early. Output to 101dB is fine and below chuffing speed.