Here's graphically my comment, series element, parallel LCR vs series element LC . Wolf expanded the discussion to include shunt tanks, a parallel element. I'll post a drawing later unless Wolf would like to. This can be difficult; as I'm guilty of using short hand circuit terminology.
Guys, links showing how, or pics/diags of what you're talking about please. This would help me better understand. It's all new to me, I know nothing and have a lot to learn.
Don't get confused and/or frustrated, but John's illustration is incorrect, as Ben pointed out. If @Wolf could provide some schematics, that would be great. Y'all know I'm not good at this stuff.
EDIT: I read @jhollander post several times and now I'm thinking I am wrong.
On the drive to work it occurred to me other than Ben's first "No" we are saying the same thing. So I think the confusion is that I'm defining the filter circuit position "series", or "parallel" before defining the filter wiring. That's how I learned it. Here's the PCD circuit drawing.
I've been anxious to get started on the mcm project, but never realized there were a pair of FaitalPro 5fe120 and xt25tg30 sitting in the corner that I could be working on.
Time to play with pcd. These are manufacturer's specs, not in the box measurements. The jagged lines were from me tracing in spltracer. So yea John, at this point in time, this is also theoretical, but work will probably begin next week around Thanksgiving.
One thing I focus on is making sure the tweeter transfer function is a little smoother than what you are showing. That knee at at ~2k and the wrinkle at Fs both need to be addressed. Might mean you cross a bit higher, but the tweeter will thank you.
Is the broad dip ~1.5 - 5k too much? When measuring other speakers it seems this region makes a big difference in how long I can listen.
Can't seem to get the same nice steep phase null as before. The null is there, and the phase is close, what's going on there and does that need work?
An LR in the 3rd leg got rid of the bump@5oo. Rounded the knee @2k. Part of the jagged response around that knee is probably my tracing in paint to get spltrace to follow. Parts count for the crossover is now 8.
Have not added in resistance for the inductors. Where does that measurement come from? Does the woofer area around 5k need rolled off more? Having trouble with that.
That broad dip wouldn't concern me too much at this point. Your transfer functions look a lot better now too. Your parts count isn't terrible either. In my mind your simulation proves that this driver combo will work and I would take the next step of building the enclosures and taking real measurements of the drivers.
That broad dip wouldn't concern me too much at this point. Your transfer functions look a lot better now too. Your parts count isn't terrible either. In my mind your simulation proves that this driver combo will work and I would take the next step of building the enclosures and taking real measurements of the drivers.
I agree Craig. This looks very good. Get the enclosures done and grab some measurements. I do think that you maybe adjusting a bit once you measure, but you are very close. When i used the 5fe120 with a 3.4k cross, I used a 2.2 and .2mh coil and 6.8uf cap.
Is the broad dip ~1.5 - 5k too much? When measuring other speakers it seems this region makes a big difference in how long I can listen.
Can't seem to get the same nice steep phase null as before. The null is there, and the phase is close, what's going on there and does that need work?
An LR in the 3rd leg got rid of the bump@5oo. Rounded the knee @2k. Part of the jagged response around that knee is probably my tracing in paint to get spltrace to follow. Parts count for the crossover is now 8.
Have not added in resistance for the inductors. Where does that measurement come from? Does the woofer area around 5k need rolled off more? Having trouble with that.
... and now I'm kinda stuck.
Better?
Worse?
Acceptable ... barely?
This response looks like perfection to me, it's what I end up with for my builds, but I like my sound to be a bit heavy. If you find it too heavy, just lift the tweeter 1dB and give another listen. If you have some EQ available, its easy to lift the tweeter level to find exactly what is right for you before swapping out parts.
As for the phase alignment (tracking), you can look at the phase of each driver individually, I prefer this over looking at the 180deg null. What you will find if the phase doesn't align on-axis, that slightly off-axis the response at the crossover freq will be lifted, which may be ok if your placement does not have the speakers aimed directly at your face. If phase is perfectly aligned on-axis, then the response will only drop off off-axis.
I don't know what you mean about the inductor DCR. Just pull the value from the inductor specs. You "can" measure with a multimeter, but keep in mind that many meters aren't very accurate at low resistances, if your meter reads above 0 ohm with the leads shorted, I'd subtract that value from your measurements.
Here's what I'm looking at; 9L (.318ft³) tuned to 52hz, f³44.8hz. There's a port resonance just above 500hz that I couldn't get rid of. Smaller port = chuffing, larger port=larger resonance. Port will be facing back, unless I can figure out a way to calculate and build a slot port.
Wanted to get into the 40's, even if it costs power handling.
And I guess the uneven double-hump mean less than optimal box tuning?
Probably get to the lumber yard tomorrow. Don't know what I'll come back with.
Plan on using a light stain, or no stain, and clear gloss lacquer. Hoping the light pine compliments the darker poplar. Never worked with poplar, we'll see how it goes.
Smaller rear mounted port should be fine. I don't think you will be playing them at 50 watts all the time and rear mounting will make chuffing less noticable.
Some of those "Mastercraft" boards from Menards can be quite nice... I've never used the spruce (pine), but the poplar can be nice if the boards are straight and have cool grain patterns. I think Javad has used lots of cool looking poplar from Home Depot.
Poplar is all over the place. Doesn't stain well is blochy. Try a dark stain. The mahogany from Menard's gets a nice rich brown shine with just clear finish. The ash will stay pretty much the way it is. Tried all these woods. Poplar is string and cheap, but not a great finish taker.... Usually use then on the side for super structure.... Not speakers but other assorted stuff
Oak is very versatile... Can also take acrylic colors, but a lot if steps to finish starting with filling the pores.... But endless possibilities, natural, dark, ebony, ceruse, ebony, popping florescent colors with wood grains....
Yup poplar is great to work with but doesn’t finish well. If you’re going to stain I would try a gel stain. If your boards are equal in appearance and you’re happy with the way the boxes look, try just clear sealer. Have fun.
We we have several guys here who are masters at finishing, so go ahead and ask questions if you find yourself in a rut. Guys like @BobBarkto can work miracles at times.
Danish oil? Javad's looked pretty sharp. I really liked the feel of boys pico- neos w/danish oil and that was on soft pine. It did take forever to finish and it was still somewhat blotchy.
Would a pretreatment help the bitchiness?
But I'd also like a nice deep shine on these instead of the soft damp look of the pico-neos. Will brush on lacquer work over danish oil and will the danish oil work on both woods ok?
What's this liquid glass stuff?
Also going to wet the pine to raise the grain then sand flat before staining, oiling, or whatever gets done to it. Either the grain raised when the OS's (for my fishing buddy), were stained, or they were wavy like the surface of a windy lake, cause they were nowhere near flat. Proved a real bear to sand the lacquer on them without sanding through somewhere.
There's one, well maybe two reasons, I use pine so much; it's cheap and easy to get. (maybe another reason, I really like the knotty, close grain stuff I made the kitchen cabinets out of, It gives the wood lots of character) and If I screw up, I've only lost a couple bucks plus my time. Some of the other woods are darn expensive and I'm not good enough not to waste quite a bit of it.
I have quite a bit of old sawmill oak (think of the stuff barns are made of) that I'd like to eventually try and turn into something nice but seeing how much that stuff moves as it dries/cycles/and just moves around, makes me think it will never be still enough to make an enclosure out of.
I've seen some of the work done on TT, I know you guys got your $hit together when it comes to turning a stick of wood into a showpiece.
Comments
InDIYana Event Website
Wolfy's Photobucket
InDIYana Event Website
Wolfy's Photobucket
EDIT: I read @jhollander post several times and now I'm thinking I am wrong.
So the question is: can a notch be series??
Time for Bryan to go to bed.
If you want to take me to task then a tank is also a notch filter.
I've said a notch filter can also be in series or parallel with the driver.
Bust out the PCD circuit drawings
On the drive to work it occurred to me other than Ben's first "No" we are saying the same thing. So I think the confusion is that I'm defining the filter circuit position "series", or "parallel" before defining the filter wiring. That's how I learned it. Here's the PCD circuit drawing.
Okay, I follow you now. It is how the components are wired, not where they are in the circuit.
Series notches the LCR are in series, then placed in parallel with the driver.
Parallel notches, the LCR are in parallel, then placed in series with the driver.
This is the main reason why they are confusing. Jeff's circuit lays out placement in the circuit, not the type of circuit that it is.
C1/R1/L1 makes a parallel notch. Omit R1 for a tank.
C5/L7/R5 makes a series notch. Omit R5 for a trap.
InDIYana Event Website
Wolfy's Photobucket
Time to play with pcd. These are manufacturer's specs, not in the box measurements. The jagged lines were from me tracing in spltracer. So yea John, at this point in time, this is also theoretical, but work will probably begin next week around Thanksgiving.
How does this look, phase, bsc, etc. ?????
Can't seem to get the same nice steep phase null as before. The null is there, and the phase is close, what's going on there and does that need work?
An LR in the 3rd leg got rid of the bump@5oo. Rounded the knee @2k. Part of the jagged response around that knee is probably my tracing in paint to get spltrace to follow. Parts count for the crossover is now 8.
Have not added in resistance for the inductors. Where does that measurement come from?
Does the woofer area around 5k need rolled off more? Having trouble with that.
... and now I'm kinda stuck.
Better?
Worse?
Acceptable ... barely?
As for the phase alignment (tracking), you can look at the phase of each driver individually, I prefer this over looking at the 180deg null. What you will find if the phase doesn't align on-axis, that slightly off-axis the response at the crossover freq will be lifted, which may be ok if your placement does not have the speakers aimed directly at your face. If phase is perfectly aligned on-axis, then the response will only drop off off-axis.
I don't know what you mean about the inductor DCR. Just pull the value from the inductor specs. You "can" measure with a multimeter, but keep in mind that many meters aren't very accurate at low resistances, if your meter reads above 0 ohm with the leads shorted, I'd subtract that value from your measurements.
Wanted to get into the 40's, even if it costs power handling.
And I guess the uneven double-hump mean less than optimal box tuning?
Probably get to the lumber yard tomorrow. Don't know what I'll come back with.
Comments ...
Would a pretreatment help the bitchiness?
But I'd also like a nice deep shine on these instead of the soft damp look of the pico-neos. Will brush on lacquer work over danish oil and will the danish oil work on both woods ok?
What's this liquid glass stuff?
Also going to wet the pine to raise the grain then sand flat before staining, oiling, or whatever gets done to it. Either the grain raised when the OS's (for my fishing buddy), were stained, or they were wavy like the surface of a windy lake, cause they were nowhere near flat. Proved a real bear to sand the lacquer on them without sanding through somewhere.
There's one, well maybe two reasons, I use pine so much; it's cheap and easy to get. (maybe another reason, I really like the knotty, close grain stuff I made the kitchen cabinets out of, It gives the wood lots of character) and If I screw up, I've only lost a couple bucks plus my time. Some of the other woods are darn expensive and I'm not good enough not to waste quite a bit of it.
I have quite a bit of old sawmill oak (think of the stuff barns are made of) that I'd like to eventually try and turn into something nice but seeing how much that stuff moves as it dries/cycles/and just moves around, makes me think it will never be still enough to make an enclosure out of.
I've seen some of the work done on TT, I know you guys got your $hit together when it comes to turning a stick of wood into a showpiece.