Opinions encouraged

Gowa

I’m preparing a winter project.

Woofer: Rival R176-P-08 (7’’)

Midrange: Dayton Audio RS100P-4 (4’’)

Tweeter: Dayton Audio ND20FA-6 (3/4") or CSS tweeter

Ported Enclosure

External: 32''x 9'' x 8''

Midrange sealed: 0.05 ft.³

I'm not sure if a TL would be appropriate here.

I want to keep the enclosure smallish. 

 

Mzisserson

What's the design goal? 

Those are all great drivers. You could go U-bffle mind if you have never tried it and keep the form factor. 

Just spit-balling thoughts. Even a sealed straight-up 3-way would be great 

jhollander

opinions... lose the ND20FA it's not bringing anything to the party, put the woofer closer to the floor to pick up some boundary reinforcement.

PWRRYD

I concur with John regarding the tweeter.  I would use this instead:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/sb-acoustics-soft-dome-tweeters/sb-acoustics-sb26stcn-c000-4-tweeter-4-ohms/

It's a great small format tweeter that isn't too pricey.  I used it in a 2 way with the paper RS150 and it was awesome.  I took that project to Indy a few years ago (called the Jonquils) and received some very nice compliments from Dan N., Jeff Bagby, etc.  I think even Wolf gave me a slight nod of approval ;-)

Gowa

I’m thinking Art Deco’ish for the overall look. If I can get it to work, it should have a nice small footprint.

I figured the ND20 would be the weak link but I’ve never used it before. The SB26STCN is a good idea. I had my eye on that one some time ago but never got around to snagging it.

I originally had the woofer center lower.  I’ll try that.

isaeagle4031

I agree with John and Craig. The 26stcn is a much better unit. It's why I've used it in 3 different builds now.

dcibel

Or kick it up another notch and go for SB29RDCN

Mzisserson

Its ok to use somthing you want to use. The ND20 is the weak link, you have been around long enough to know this. However if it is something you want ro use to balance look with performance, I see nothing "wrong" with it. There are always "better" drivers that can be used. You can drop to the Nd16 which has better performance than the 20, but will need to be croased slightly higher.   The ND25's are very good tweeters as well. 

We are speaking opnions here......Stick to the art-deco design. The look is cool and you can acoustically work around it. Also, I may be the only person in the planet but I do not like SB tweeters. They have great low-treble resoultion, but in the several designs and few models I have heard and have tested, both dimple dome and regular dome, they make a wonderful 5 min demo but have an inherent glare and are too rolled off on top for long term love. 

Seems to be a consistant house sound for them. Their woofers and mids are very well done. 

What about that new peerless 3/4" looks neat!

https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-dx20bf00-04-3-4-silk-dome-tweeter-4-ohm--264-1472


No matter which way you go, stick to your design goals, at the end of the day a speaker is a sum of ALL parts. 

Gowa

 SB29RDCN it is.

PWRRYD

I hadn't seen that Peerless 3/4" before.  Looks interesting, and it's super cheap too!  Have you heard it Mike?

jhollander

Craig, I like the DX20 and used it in my SLS-85 project.  I'd give it a nod over the ND25.

isaeagle4031

Mzisserson said:

Its ok to use somthing you want to use. The ND20 is the weak link, you have been around long enough to know this. However if it is something you want ro use to balance look with performance, I see nothing "wrong" with it. There are always "better" drivers that can be used. You can drop to the Nd16 which has better performance than the 20, but will need to be croased slightly higher.   The ND25's are very good tweeters as well. 

We are speaking opnions here......Stick to the art-deco design. The look is cool and you can acoustically work around it. Also, I may be the only person in the planet but I do not like SB tweeters. They have great low-treble resoultion, but in the several designs and few models I have heard and have tested, both dimple dome and regular dome, they make a wonderful 5 min demo but have an inherent glare and are too rolled off on top for long term love. 

Seems to be a consistant house sound for them. Their woofers and mids are very well done. 

What about that new peerless 3/4" looks neat!

https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-dx20bf00-04-3-4-silk-dome-tweeter-4-ohm--264-1472


No matter which way you go, stick to your design goals, at the end of the day a speaker is a sum of ALL parts. 

isaeagle4031

Hmm dont know what happened there. I quoted mike, but the rest of the post went poor.

Anyway, my experience with the SB drivers is pretty much the opposite. The midwoofs, I am not a fan of so much. They are certainly good in terms of low 3rd order distortion but in the process seemed to kill the warmth of the 2nd order. The tweeters, particularly the 26stac and 26stcn, have exhibited a smooth top end with a good sense of air. They are very clean at the top and have been quite easy to work with. 

Mzisserson

PWRRYD said:

I hadn't seen that Peerless 3/4" before.  Looks interesting, and it's super cheap too!  Have you heard it Mike?

I have not. I want to play with it sunce I love small dones, but have a ton on my plate. I am guessing it is, at worst, good. Peerless/tymphant/vifa/speak or whatever they are called today produced better more consistant products than their company names. 

Based on rep.....Need a pair to test though. 

Wolf

I agree with Chuck on the woofers for the most part. I really liked JP's 2-ways in Sept at GR, and that's saying something. The Satori 7" is alright, but I really liked the 5" I also heard that day- moreso than the 7". Most of the time to me they sound really benign or sterile.

The tweeters he mentioned I also agree with in that they sound good. The dimple-domes are a different bird, as their power response droops more readily than other domes. Since it's a RR, the off-axis suffers a bit just like the XT25 does. The XT has a rise in the top, where the SB doesn't, and this just makes it sound dead with the characteristics they have- IMO. Jeff said when he used it he lifted the top-end a smidge for better PR on the Piccolo and Mandolin. I thought those were okay in those implementations, but still missing something. The Satori did not seem to suffer the same issue and sounded fine to me.

Gowa

Thanks for the input. I'll digest the tweeter info for a while. I want excellent dispersion at the top.

jr@mac

When I built the Vermillions, "sterile" and "benign" would not be words people who heard them would use to describe the SB woofer in those. 

There is a trick I discovered to make that SB sing. 

JasonP

Gowa said:

Thanks for the input. I'll digest the tweeter info for a while. I want excellent dispersion at the top.

What i heard of these in Rory's Neutrinos was great, and feature great dispersion: https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/hard-dome-tweeter/seas-prestige-22taf/g-h1283-alum/magn.-alloy-22-mm-dome-tweeter/

I think many of us can agree, SEAS knows how to make a good tweeter.

NavyGuy

I've used the following in various builds:

Dayotn ND16
Dayotn ND20
Dayotn ND25
SB26STAC
SB26ADC
CSS LD22

I'm sure most people will think I'm biased on this since I'm one of the new owners, but I personally prefer the LD22 over all the others. I honestly think it's an amazing sounding tweeter. I have the ND25 in my Boomsticks right now and can do direct A/B comparisons. It’s a great tweeter, especially for the price, but it’s just not in the same league.

My next pick would be the SB26ADC aluminum dome. It is a really nice tweeter. I like it better than the SB26STAC or the neo version (which I’ve heard but not used in my own build. I think the aluminum sounds like it is more detailed and has more snap. The SB26 sounds very polite and maybe along the lines of what Mike said, a little rolled off sounding (not measuring) on the top end in comparison.

 

Of the Daytons, The ND20 is my least favorite. The ND25 can be crossed much lower than the other two and has very low measured distortion. The ND16 really limits your crossover options but I like the sound of small dome tweeters. The extra off-axis energy you get gives cymbals a different sound you don’t get with a lot of the larger domes. 

jr@mac

I used the LD22C in the Vermillions, and was impressed with it. Quite a bit, actually. The more I think about it, the more I kind of have sellers remorse for letting them go. They were (are) great speakers, and what started me on the path of focusing not just on putting good drivers in a box and relying on them to do a lot of the work - but to pay very close attention to the baffle and not ignoring what is happening between the 400-1500Hz range due to baffle step losses. 

ani_101

Saw the ld22 at Iowa as a door prize, but Chris R snapped it up along with the woofers. Where can we get one and how low can it cross. Interested in a small tweeter. Any measurement and specs?

PWRRYD

Meniscus?

NavyGuy

They are up on our website for sale: www.css-audio.com/tweeters

We don't have infinite baffle measurements yet but they are very smooth tweeters. This is a distortion graph at 1 meter in the Criton cabinet. SPL shown on the graph. Sorry for the scale. I didn't realize it exported in 10 dB increments until after I closed OmniMic.



Also, you can check here for measurements in the full kit: www.css-audio.com/criton1td

The tweeter has a 3rd order electrical slope at 1800 Hz in the new Criton design and isn't showing strain.

Bryan@MAC

ani_101 said:

Saw the ld22 at Iowa as a door prize, but Chris R snapped it up along with the woofers. Where can we get one and how low can it cross. Interested in a small tweeter. Any measurement and specs?

The LD22 and LDW7 were put together on the Iowa DIY door prize table in the hopes that the winner would build the CSS Criton 1TD v2.0.  It's a great sounding kit and I did send Chris an email with contact info for CSS so he can get the XO spec and build the kit.

The point of soliciting sponsors for giveaways is to see the products come back in future builds.  Unfortunately that doesn't always happen and we discussing ways to remedy that exact problem.



 

ani_101

I think I heard the previous CSS kit with the LDW7 woofers and CSS Ribbon. That woofer hits hard. I don't think I heard the current kit.

greywarden

Bryan@MAC said:

ani_101 said:

Saw the ld22 at Iowa as a door prize, but Chris R snapped it up along with the woofers. Where can we get one and how low can it cross. Interested in a small tweeter. Any measurement and specs?

The LD22 and LDW7 were put together on the Iowa DIY door prize table in the hopes that the winner would build the CSS Criton 1TD v2.0.  It's a great sounding kit and I did send Chris an email with contact info for CSS so he can get the XO spec and build the kit.

The point of soliciting sponsors for giveaways is to see the products come back in future builds.  Unfortunately that doesn't always happen and we discussing ways to remedy that exact problem.



 

Vouchers for drivers? Then they'll be more likely to add extra parts for the kits...

NavyGuy

ani_101 said:

I think I heard the previous CSS kit with the LDW7 woofers and CSS Ribbon. That woofer hits hard. I don't think I heard the current kit.

We had the kit at Grand Rapids in September, but ended up making a few tweaks when we got back. We didn't get a lot of listen time on it before we took it and ended up not happy with the results. In my opinion, it sounds much better now than it did, which is pretty weird considering the response had very little change. 

The woofer is a beast down low. The low end is very clean and they seems not to care how hard you push them. The midrange distortion is low, but not quite as low as the Satori, although most of the LDW7 is second order.

ani_101

Thanks Kerry, I missed Grand Rapids this year, didn't had enough time to plan for it. I liked what I heard in the MTM CSS ribbon kit, a lot of good low end from the woofer in a reasonably sized box

dcibel

I've always been interested in the CSS drivers, but had a hard time justifying purchasing them over similar Wavecor models. Can anyone shed some light on the differences between the CSS-Audio and similar Wavecor units like the TW022 and WF182?

cssaudio1

dcibel said:

I've always been interested in the CSS drivers, but had a hard time justifying purchasing them over similar Wavecor models. Can anyone shed some light on the differences between the CSS-Audio and similar Wavecor units like the TW022 and WF182?

The LD22 and LDW7 are both built by Wavecor and are variations of the drivers you mentioned.  Bob had worked with Wavecor before we took over to provide a similar, but still unique line. 

The LDW7 was modified slightly from the WF182 to provide parameters better optimized for low end extension.  The LD22 was modified slightly from the TW022 to be able to cross over lower and then new faceplates were developed and produced.  I have never heard the Wavecor versions of these drivers, but Kerry and I have been very impressed with both of them.  They are both extremely low distortion drivers and I don't think I've ever heard a dome as small as the LD22 cross as low with so little strain.  It provides a unique combination of wide dispersion, low xo and small CTC potential.

I suspect the Wavecor versions would sound very good as well.  

Dan

dcibel

Thanks for the details, Dan! Much appreciated.