On 12db alignment have 3 ohm dip around 70-110Hz. Z slightly better on the 3rd order at around 3.5ohm. Bounces around 4-6 ohm up to 2k then around 6-8 after that. Not worried as I will run off amps that can handle it rather than the receiver. Currently happy with the even-ness at various volume levels.
4 ohm drivers across the board. When I bought the wo24's, Madisound only had the 4 ohms ones in stock (month or so after SDC2023) and when got the sb12cac's at the kick off of holiday sale, so the 4 ohm ones as well.
Somedays wish would incorporate recessed box for xover - but think it better to achieve end state vs continual f'ing around.
Can see being uncommittal on xover in these abominations that this 3way build replacing, a 2.2 setup - perform great but low WAF but she's like whatever. Note to self, rattle can'ing larger speakers blah, know to just bust out the sprayer for better results. Sdx10's not sure what do with yet. Budget-ish Faital10-peerless prob go to garage, get crazy loud and something appealing about large format mid range, 1.6k xover and had to 1 ohm pad the woofer for level matching since they second hand 4 ohm'ers. They're sealed with no intention of doing below 80hz, nor would many pro drivers anyway, but of course have sacrificial sub hidden away in garage too.
Found need to work on voicing the chunker 3 ways once moved to family room, too much bass. Should have known seeing the 1mh pair of coils for sb12cac's low pass given the satori 9.5 4ohm sensitive.
Anyway.... SDC2024, think they should allow GRS drivers in the 'dayton only' category. When was ordering some other supplies, bit the bullet and bought https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-PT6825-8-8-Planar-Mid-Tweeter-8-Ohm-272-126?quantity=1 Really like the sound of the Heil's on Nick's Indy24 entry, figured try frugal GRS mid-tweet and cross around 1k with the dual epic7 bases have.
Thought I saw bread crumbs that Ben may enter the dayton cat? (sig180 and ribbon)
Imagine i should register, keep testing fate to see if category fills up forcing my hand heh. Planning to enter >300 entry with continued Seas fanboy-dom, but not the kents (titan7+L12coax).
Right now running these grs mid-tweet planars using minidsp, little no shelf on the epic's and mild pulldown shelf centered 6k since know from playing with simulations for a passive xover that some run up in response on the grs - havent even pulled out the microphone yet and intrigued by sound. Some past open baffle experiments were horrible in this room, prob because excessive mid range only echo's. Have passive xo worked out in models but had to see if worth clipping up to see.
@traw said:
Anyway.... SDC2024, think they should allow GRS drivers in the 'dayton only' category.
I had an idea for the PT2522c and thought about this, but assumed they wouldn't allow GRS in the Dayton category. I'm sure you could just send them an email and ask.
Yeah and I keep wondering what the wavecor story is, was anxiously awaiting their "expected back 6/14" but being suspicious with the 'clearance' marking of items. Would suspect when people see metal stamped frames they think offering overpriced, but i was surprised by one of those offerings (w146paper). Had my eye on 8.5 paper sub(?)/woofer which solen does not carry. Where does Wavecor hale from?
I'll prob ask about GRS just to know the answer, wonder if they not wanna broadcast grs nature. But prob still on other planned route
What's the determent of padding down mid and tweet to match a bass driver? For specifics, have dual epic7 bass bin that should yield around 87-89db 1w but also have CSS SDX10's in 2cuft that believe are around 83db from what I can gather on interweb (should measure). Plan to integrate a midwoof-tweet and worry the latter, CSS which does even deeper bass, might be less efficient and have to damp the 2 way a lot. While my EE background says linear, the audiophoolery yanks the chains. What say you?
I've been told or read on more than one occasion that too much series resistance took the "life" out of a tweeter's sound. I've had instances myself with using 15 ohms in series that did not suffer "life" loss. However, I too have set a personal limit rule of thumb on values for series and parallel resistors, to which I can't always adhere.
In terms of tweeter and midrange Lpads.....
I try to keep parallel resistors above 1.5x the related driver impedance or higher. I try to avoid sending too much current through there after seeing the demise of resistors in builders' past. If possible, I will shift the parallel resistor value higher and increase the series R to compensate. I've seen lpads with 1 ohm across a tweeter, and it just makes my skin crawl even if there is series resistance out front of it.
I also try to keep series resistance to a minimum and not go higher than 15 ohms.
I know that Purifi/Lars say series resistance to a degree can lower HD, so up to a point is likely fine.
In parallel notches (placed in series with driver, yes, Lars calls this a series notch which is incorrect via all other documentation of such an application I've come across), I have used 40 ohms before. However, this is targeting a very small bandwidth in most cases and therefore does not exceed my previous notions.
In terms of value, I keep some 75, 100, and 150 ohm resistors on hand. This is to trim another resistor value to hear what the sound is like without changing the actual resistor in the circuit, especially for voicing a design.
Not doctrine of course, and textbook wise, it might even be false. This is just my MO with regards to resistor usage.
I'm going to be the asshole and say use whatever it takes to get the job done, but always keep an eye on power dissipation and use appropriate wattage resistors. Just my opinion., and above all else have fun.
I've read posts over at DIYAudio where certain people claim too large of a padding resistor will suck the life out of a tweeter, but I don't put much stock into that. I had to use a 15 ohm resistor in series (before the filter) to level match the drivers and the tweeters sounded great (my Viawave + SB15CAC project that was at Indy this Spring).
Additionally, my resistor methods stem mainly from the holistic xover methods I use, and "to do no harm", unless it's breakup or other such issues. Then feel free to kill them with fire!
The thought is that it adds electrical damping to the driver and damps the driver in the applied bandwidth. However, I'm not certain about this. I say this because it effectively reduces output like that of lowering the output from the preamp or amplifier. This means the HD will be lower magnitude at lower output, but is the reference to nominal output larger or equal to that of the driver at higher output or without the added resistance?
Been still building n learning, at less of ocd pace that was and avoiding buying things, mostly, and just play with stuff accumulated, rejiggering. I stole my scan speak 8 inch buyouts, well really a vifa woofer given model num M22 something. I had them in my old acoustic energy AE3's but think I'm going to refurbish those and switch back to metal cone woofer and looks like the sig225 models well. That AE3 is about 1 cuft with 4-1inch ports, impedance sweep showed me box tuned to around 38 hz. The original woofer hit very hard, the scan speaks great but little more of that warmer paper cone bass sound.
Anyway, then on fleabay few months back stumbled across some seas 4" woven poly midranges (like used in lx mini) for about 25% cost. Pontificated on what tweeter to use, didnt wanna use up a low cross-able tweeter up. Only needed like a 3/4 inch or a ribbon since knew would be min 3k. I wasn't really wanting to spend a lot on tweets. Considered the seas silk 'car audio' sized tweet also used on lx mini, but then settled on the seas 3/4" alum dome tweeter which is the only part paid full price for. Had considered the sb 1 inch alum. I love the seas 27tac that have and noticed the 3/4 has little H2 sprinkle and have always liked seas metal domes. Sometimes their silkies have that 10k splash which is I like for a change up, but it's a flavor of sorts.
Made a 1 cuft box, easier to deal with standmounts. Plus first build that did the measurements in bigger space in basement. Also having my stuff down there keeps my exposure time limited, more patient and methodical approach. At first ran into the same quirk as the tectonic bmr 3.5 where 4-5db dip in the 1.6-1.8k region. At first was worried it from the small sealed cavity from pvc end cap for the mid. Also did some crude off axis measurements to see if changes but in the end just figured work around it in the same manner and let ears be the judge.
Ended up with about 400hz woofer-mid and 4.1k mid-tweeter and a parallel notch around 1350. Glad the sensitivities lined up well where just minor resistor between high pass and low pass section on the mid. Also the modeling of the woofer was good in 28L which was one of the reasons originally acquired them in 2020 for the AE3's.
The stands are general bass bins that are not required for these speakers. They are peerless xls 12 830500's - I had 1 forever as my fam room sub and few years ago acquired a second, both were decommissioned so decided make sealed 1 cuft and apply some EQ. They make me relish sealed sub sound again, blend easy with various 2 ways.
Anyway.... very happy with the sound of these, love how small cone mids image and off axis for my mid-near field listening of these. Plenty of bass and damn, the mid vocals so clear. Shame there no events for long time but almost felt like drop the mic for myself for my sound preferences. Had made boxes thinking like well, if not work out put new baffle layer on them for Indy2025 project.
Still planning to add another layer to the side of enclosures, not own planer and not want to use red oak.
How do y'all keep going n going? I am very very well aware of audiophile problem of never being satisfied, or wanting to try something else. Even if love chocolate, how does peanut butter n chocolate taste.
While from indy24 I was enthralled with waveguides, seems from Iowa peeps wanna try the omni directional from what heard on the Ohm's (?). Still pondering what building for Indy25. These recent 3ways I made (above picture) have made me very happy, think these seas woven poly mids not get enough hype as we all also love the sb12cac - I think it is the off axis that suits my needs, used in small room where getting left right blend makes a big difference for me. Also have some remakes using the seas L12 coax with RSS210HF-4's that passive-active hybrid that make me very happy, also yields great mid-near field center image. I also have those spendy seas TPCD mid-tweets where reverted to default Seas suggested passive xover, while sound fantastic, I notice for my weird listening position not get the same easy center image from off to the side listening position. Basically from my daytime work position, i hear the speaker closest to me more which is expected for traditional systems but have experienced other solutions reducing that effect.
Comments
On 12db alignment have 3 ohm dip around 70-110Hz. Z slightly better on the 3rd order at around 3.5ohm. Bounces around 4-6 ohm up to 2k then around 6-8 after that. Not worried as I will run off amps that can handle it rather than the receiver. Currently happy with the even-ness at various volume levels.
4 ohm drivers across the board. When I bought the wo24's, Madisound only had the 4 ohms ones in stock (month or so after SDC2023) and when got the sb12cac's at the kick off of holiday sale, so the 4 ohm ones as well.
Somedays wish would incorporate recessed box for xover - but think it better to achieve end state vs continual f'ing around.
Can see being uncommittal on xover in these abominations that this 3way build replacing, a 2.2 setup - perform great but low WAF but she's like whatever. Note to self, rattle can'ing larger speakers blah, know to just bust out the sprayer for better results. Sdx10's not sure what do with yet. Budget-ish Faital10-peerless prob go to garage, get crazy loud and something appealing about large format mid range, 1.6k xover and had to 1 ohm pad the woofer for level matching since they second hand 4 ohm'ers. They're sealed with no intention of doing below 80hz, nor would many pro drivers anyway, but of course have sacrificial sub hidden away in garage too.
Russian FT-3 Teflon 0.1uF:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/335356325969?itmmeta=01HZB8DMB8GJFPS8K6BBF5TSFW&hash=item4e14cb7051:g:GpkAAOSwuDZmIj13
InDIYana Event Website
Found need to work on voicing the chunker 3 ways once moved to family room, too much bass. Should have known seeing the 1mh pair of coils for sb12cac's low pass given the satori 9.5 4ohm sensitive.
Anyway.... SDC2024, think they should allow GRS drivers in the 'dayton only' category. When was ordering some other supplies, bit the bullet and bought https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-PT6825-8-8-Planar-Mid-Tweeter-8-Ohm-272-126?quantity=1 Really like the sound of the Heil's on Nick's Indy24 entry, figured try frugal GRS mid-tweet and cross around 1k with the dual epic7 bases have.
Thought I saw bread crumbs that Ben may enter the dayton cat? (sig180 and ribbon)
Imagine i should register, keep testing fate to see if category fills up forcing my hand heh. Planning to enter >300 entry with continued Seas fanboy-dom, but not the kents (titan7+L12coax).
Right now running these grs mid-tweet planars using minidsp, little no shelf on the epic's and mild pulldown shelf centered 6k since know from playing with simulations for a passive xover that some run up in response on the grs - havent even pulled out the microphone yet and intrigued by sound. Some past open baffle experiments were horrible in this room, prob because excessive mid range only echo's. Have passive xo worked out in models but had to see if worth clipping up to see.
I had an idea for the PT2522c and thought about this, but assumed they wouldn't allow GRS in the Dayton category. I'm sure you could just send them an email and ask.
Yeah and I keep wondering what the wavecor story is, was anxiously awaiting their "expected back 6/14" but being suspicious with the 'clearance' marking of items. Would suspect when people see metal stamped frames they think offering overpriced, but i was surprised by one of those offerings (w146paper). Had my eye on 8.5 paper sub(?)/woofer which solen does not carry. Where does Wavecor hale from?
I'll prob ask about GRS just to know the answer, wonder if they not wanna broadcast grs nature. But prob still on other planned route
I'm entering the Anomalies in 300+, just for an answer...
InDIYana Event Website
What's the determent of padding down mid and tweet to match a bass driver? For specifics, have dual epic7 bass bin that should yield around 87-89db 1w but also have CSS SDX10's in 2cuft that believe are around 83db from what I can gather on interweb (should measure). Plan to integrate a midwoof-tweet and worry the latter, CSS which does even deeper bass, might be less efficient and have to damp the 2 way a lot. While my EE background says linear, the audiophoolery yanks the chains. What say you?
I've been told or read on more than one occasion that too much series resistance took the "life" out of a tweeter's sound. I've had instances myself with using 15 ohms in series that did not suffer "life" loss. However, I too have set a personal limit rule of thumb on values for series and parallel resistors, to which I can't always adhere.
In terms of tweeter and midrange Lpads.....
I try to keep parallel resistors above 1.5x the related driver impedance or higher. I try to avoid sending too much current through there after seeing the demise of resistors in builders' past. If possible, I will shift the parallel resistor value higher and increase the series R to compensate. I've seen lpads with 1 ohm across a tweeter, and it just makes my skin crawl even if there is series resistance out front of it.
I also try to keep series resistance to a minimum and not go higher than 15 ohms.
I know that Purifi/Lars say series resistance to a degree can lower HD, so up to a point is likely fine.
In parallel notches (placed in series with driver, yes, Lars calls this a series notch which is incorrect via all other documentation of such an application I've come across), I have used 40 ohms before. However, this is targeting a very small bandwidth in most cases and therefore does not exceed my previous notions.
In terms of value, I keep some 75, 100, and 150 ohm resistors on hand. This is to trim another resistor value to hear what the sound is like without changing the actual resistor in the circuit, especially for voicing a design.
Not doctrine of course, and textbook wise, it might even be false. This is just my MO with regards to resistor usage.
InDIYana Event Website
I'm going to be the asshole and say use whatever it takes to get the job done, but always keep an eye on power dissipation and use appropriate wattage resistors. Just my opinion., and above all else have fun.
I've read posts over at DIYAudio where certain people claim too large of a padding resistor will suck the life out of a tweeter, but I don't put much stock into that. I had to use a 15 ohm resistor in series (before the filter) to level match the drivers and the tweeters sounded great (my Viawave + SB15CAC project that was at Indy this Spring).
Additionally, my resistor methods stem mainly from the holistic xover methods I use, and "to do no harm", unless it's breakup or other such issues. Then feel free to kill them with fire!
InDIYana Event Website
I'm curious to learn the theory behind this. Is the series resistance somehow changing the reactance in the coil/motor?
The thought is that it adds electrical damping to the driver and damps the driver in the applied bandwidth. However, I'm not certain about this. I say this because it effectively reduces output like that of lowering the output from the preamp or amplifier. This means the HD will be lower magnitude at lower output, but is the reference to nominal output larger or equal to that of the driver at higher output or without the added resistance?
InDIYana Event Website
Been still building n learning, at less of ocd pace that was and avoiding buying things, mostly, and just play with stuff accumulated, rejiggering. I stole my scan speak 8 inch buyouts, well really a vifa woofer given model num M22 something. I had them in my old acoustic energy AE3's but think I'm going to refurbish those and switch back to metal cone woofer and looks like the sig225 models well. That AE3 is about 1 cuft with 4-1inch ports, impedance sweep showed me box tuned to around 38 hz. The original woofer hit very hard, the scan speaks great but little more of that warmer paper cone bass sound.
Anyway, then on fleabay few months back stumbled across some seas 4" woven poly midranges (like used in lx mini) for about 25% cost. Pontificated on what tweeter to use, didnt wanna use up a low cross-able tweeter up. Only needed like a 3/4 inch or a ribbon since knew would be min 3k. I wasn't really wanting to spend a lot on tweets. Considered the seas silk 'car audio' sized tweet also used on lx mini, but then settled on the seas 3/4" alum dome tweeter which is the only part paid full price for. Had considered the sb 1 inch alum. I love the seas 27tac that have and noticed the 3/4 has little H2 sprinkle and have always liked seas metal domes. Sometimes their silkies have that 10k splash which is I like for a change up, but it's a flavor of sorts.
Made a 1 cuft box, easier to deal with standmounts. Plus first build that did the measurements in bigger space in basement. Also having my stuff down there keeps my exposure time limited, more patient and methodical approach. At first ran into the same quirk as the tectonic bmr 3.5 where 4-5db dip in the 1.6-1.8k region. At first was worried it from the small sealed cavity from pvc end cap for the mid. Also did some crude off axis measurements to see if changes but in the end just figured work around it in the same manner and let ears be the judge.
Ended up with about 400hz woofer-mid and 4.1k mid-tweeter and a parallel notch around 1350. Glad the sensitivities lined up well where just minor resistor between high pass and low pass section on the mid. Also the modeling of the woofer was good in 28L which was one of the reasons originally acquired them in 2020 for the AE3's.
The stands are general bass bins that are not required for these speakers. They are peerless xls 12 830500's - I had 1 forever as my fam room sub and few years ago acquired a second, both were decommissioned so decided make sealed 1 cuft and apply some EQ. They make me relish sealed sub sound again, blend easy with various 2 ways.
Anyway.... very happy with the sound of these, love how small cone mids image and off axis for my mid-near field listening of these. Plenty of bass and damn, the mid vocals so clear. Shame there no events for long time but almost felt like drop the mic for myself for my sound preferences. Had made boxes thinking like well, if not work out put new baffle layer on them for Indy2025 project.
Still planning to add another layer to the side of enclosures, not own planer and not want to use red oak.
Seas FU10RB?
InDIYana Event Website
Yep, the midrange (FU10RB-SL) version rather than the 'full range' version
How do y'all keep going n going? I am very very well aware of audiophile problem of never being satisfied, or wanting to try something else. Even if love chocolate, how does peanut butter n chocolate taste.
While from indy24 I was enthralled with waveguides, seems from Iowa peeps wanna try the omni directional from what heard on the Ohm's (?). Still pondering what building for Indy25. These recent 3ways I made (above picture) have made me very happy, think these seas woven poly mids not get enough hype as we all also love the sb12cac - I think it is the off axis that suits my needs, used in small room where getting left right blend makes a big difference for me. Also have some remakes using the seas L12 coax with RSS210HF-4's that passive-active hybrid that make me very happy, also yields great mid-near field center image. I also have those spendy seas TPCD mid-tweets where reverted to default Seas suggested passive xover, while sound fantastic, I notice for my weird listening position not get the same easy center image from off to the side listening position. Basically from my daytime work position, i hear the speaker closest to me more which is expected for traditional systems but have experienced other solutions reducing that effect.