Think this Ben's thread https://diy.midwestaudio.club/discussion/comment/32478#Comment_32478 I flattened with the old shunt cap, already a natural falloff at 15k. I had/have some quirks, not perfect, with 2.1k xover point I have but it sounds about right. Only like 2nd revision on xover, maybe try couple more arrangements but like lot of these trials/iterations/learnings, put on shelf for a bit then revisit to button up and call done.
that phase plot prob not right as diff mic position where IR not updated, though only had baby rev null and some values on the xover, like the 1mh for 2nd part of 3rd order elec on woofer feels bit high but things were being stuborn getting smooth response 1.5-3k. I think the 3-5k light droop possibly not perfect phase matching, dunno - that's why i keep trying these things to force self to learn more and gain experience.
Diff question, anyway to dye/color these E180's safely?
Fight my ghetto engineering instincts to bust out a jumbo sharpy. Just curious for if I wanted them more black looking.
Maybe scuff up with 0000 steel wool, mask and spritz lightly with spray paint. Spray paint is very thin so should add minimal mass. If anything might lower the Fs a quarter hz.
Yeah I'm just gonna leave them be, no big deal, was more a curiosity. But right now much happier with these, stealth chest thump and still reach deep, cleaner sounding now. Think have tuned about right for liking, not extra boom/hump in the 40-50Hz (guess). I've been using minidsp to xover with wavecor-titantweet 2 way at 250hz, will get better feel for sensitivity improvements from using pair when make true passive 3 way incorporating them, eventually.
Oh yeah, and slapped that 1cuft flatpack, guess it was B stock as fitment overly snug, resistant. But meh, xxls10 (830842) and dual css apr10's, put about 450g on each, box freq 21hz.
That's a tortoise not a turtle - heh, jk, i dunno really.
Nah, i like turtles - personality trait, want to get a tortoise to roam the house (less messy/stinky than turtles and their water needs). So my eldest son (22 now, poor live in while commute to OSU, though he's boujee) sometimes gives me these things so I display them to show that I appreciate it.
woofer on the 3way is satori wo24-4, sub is peerless xxls. Had tower 3 way using wo24-sb12cac-sb29neo, but it was a crappy build and easier to switch around, or eek, archive, stand mounts. Though these are targeted to fam room and might not leave the house, maybe if a fall gathering. More the culmination of learning enough to make own 3 ways to my preferred voicing.
Yeah, this new lingo is really weird to me because what was once "Cool" became "Bad" and now "Sick" like puking all over the place is considered, good.
I don't see bad as good, and never used it that way. I don't understand the adjective uses of tits or balls, but have heard that too. Sweet, cool, sick, neat, nice (noice), slick, etc work for me. The sick one is related to phrases like "sick skills", and i was around guys that used it at one point.
@Wolf said:
I don't see bad as good, and never used it that way.
James Brown was "Super Bad" while Michael Jackson was just "Bad" and I think that was a supposed to be a good thing. (Although it seems they both were kind of bad in the "not good" way.)
Like Ben mentioned, these ceramidome's finicky, or temperamental responding to every minute changes. But think finally got them to disappear so to speak - i dont mind the >10k run up. Showing second rev, but first rev used the trick of shunt cap before tweeter, for a far out low pass(?) the tug the rising response down and second order electrical at woofer and mid but that wasn't behaving either. Seems like when not get that woofer mid integration working it "feels" like mid not playing low enough but think it more to integration where even if response looks smooth-ish in that 300-500 range, deceiving. So switched to 3rd order electrical across the board, get much nicer integration. Tinkering with mild notch at 1200 that playing with to keep the sb12cac from drawing too much attention to itself - not sure about that yet.
What's the correct name for the R|LCR 'shaper'? Was wondering the benefits vs simple Lpad+shunt cap (6-10uf). Seems the later totally yanks things down where less 'headroom'(?) to mold the conventional 3rd order elect C-shuntL-C portion.
not sure how the 4.7 p core got so oxidized, think Rocco (pet pug) got to it with mystical audiophile spray treatment
I suppose the correct phrase would be "broad, low Q, contour filter for attenuation bypass". Since I affectionately call a cap across the series padding resistor a "treble lift", as many other builders do, I have been calling it a "trough-lift". If the xover wasn't so low, a damped highpass could likely achieve the same result by lowering the hill inherent in the lowend rolloff. However, then a resultant rise in the upper treble would need dealt a softening. It is all how you want to deal with the things.
It is entirely possible that it yields better directivity response with the inherent dip there by not bunching off-axis. I have not yet measured the polar response to find out. That is next on my list.
It is also possible that Wavecor designed the response this way on purpose so it didn't sound so clinical. Wavecor does listen to their drivers without filters to gauge whether they sound good or not, with measurements along for the ride, favoring good sound over flat response in some cases. I read this a long time ago, but i don't recall where.
I see the impedance peak of the mid is giving some fits, and i would wager a 400Hz point might be easier to blend. I would pop a 30 ohm resistor across it to minimize it without cutting too much output.
I'd be curious what your individual driver phases looked like, if you can show that.
Also good to know it wasn't just me. These boogers really were picky about what I fed them.
If you want to take the 'edge' off of them; Jantzen Z-Superior, Audyn Plus, Auricaps, Zen caps if you can find them, ASC 387X or 386X, maybe a decent mylar (polyethylene terephthalate) film and foil (not a dipped PET polyester metalized film type) or possibly a teflon bypass (0.1uF, Russian FT2 or FT3 are cheap) addition. They did not like the Russian polystyrene or PIO. Caps I would avoid are Audyn Q4, Jantzen Z-Standard, CrossCaps, Dayton, Solen, or anything touted as bright. I feel these tweeters are prone to buzzy voices, gritty metallic treble, sibilance, clinical clarity, and fatigue. Once you get them where they should be, they are quite listenable and clean as a whistle. They will show you all of the flaws in the source material and the builder's efforts in taming them.
WWA - wolf wisdom applied. Think now close to squared aware, listen to for week or so, touring the genre's and mental moods heh.
Have used z-superior's in a preamp build before for someone and was a cap i definitely could pick up on the improvement. Not sure I'll drop 100+ bucks on the 6.2 & 22uf in tweet circuit but of course currently using 2 from the ug list heh.
Have some 30 and 47uf mkp's from bgmicro days that replace the 1st mid inline electrolytic. Oh yeah, ended up adding a shunt cap at end where wasnt sure if sensing some sizzle echoes, though know my hearing not well up there so maybe just mental.
Anyway, this where at now. Also get the famous JR rev null shots which i like to use as sometimes need to adjust offset in vcad despite supposed not have too doing inline with each driver, use the delta seen in rew rev null vs sim to tweak delay for driver and sim vs real behave nicer.
Though of course now i wonder, if better to bring the woofer-mid to 450-500 and back to second that seems to work also. Then the sb12cac little less involved though. Had tried, in sim, to get higher mid-tweet xover but some 1600hz ish lump wasnt playing nice, was acting like a pivot point. Though makes me think need off axis measurements to have better understanding. Guess give both a listen.
edit: already did some quick crude ab-ing. the 300hz skoach crisper, but think it's also from having less warmth. But main thing, at nearish field, it's makes the mid stand out more, like's it a little lonely. The 2nd order, which landed about 420, more cohesive. Was off work most of today as have to work tonight for a stress test.
I've had midrange results similar to both of those. I like the look of the 12dB highpass, as it is a broader blend, and it eases the lower end load for the mid. Is the impedance okay?
Comments
This?
https://seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=556:h1825-06-27tac_gb&catid=45&Itemid=239
OoooOoh!
That does look rather nice . . . Thanks, Turn2 . . .
Think this Ben's thread https://diy.midwestaudio.club/discussion/comment/32478#Comment_32478 I flattened with the old shunt cap, already a natural falloff at 15k. I had/have some quirks, not perfect, with 2.1k xover point I have but it sounds about right. Only like 2nd revision on xover, maybe try couple more arrangements but like lot of these trials/iterations/learnings, put on shelf for a bit then revisit to button up and call done.
that phase plot prob not right as diff mic position where IR not updated, though only had baby rev null and some values on the xover, like the 1mh for 2nd part of 3rd order elec on woofer feels bit high but things were being stuborn getting smooth response 1.5-3k. I think the 3-5k light droop possibly not perfect phase matching, dunno - that's why i keep trying these things to force self to learn more and gain experience.
Deleted
Think it's this one Steve.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/hard-dome-tweeter/seas-prestige-27tac/gb-h1825-aluminum/magnesium-dome-tweeter/
Thanks LT Dan - same unit asTurn2 posted.
Diff question, anyway to dye/color these E180's safely?
Fight my ghetto engineering instincts to bust out a jumbo sharpy. Just curious for if I wanted them more black looking.
Maybe scuff up with 0000 steel wool, mask and spritz lightly with spray paint. Spray paint is very thin so should add minimal mass. If anything might lower the Fs a quarter hz.
I'd not want to be the person with steel fibers all over my drivers. Not to mention it could break the seal in the fibers of the cone.
InDIYana Event Website
Yeah I'm just gonna leave them be, no big deal, was more a curiosity. But right now much happier with these, stealth chest thump and still reach deep, cleaner sounding now. Think have tuned about right for liking, not extra boom/hump in the 40-50Hz (guess). I've been using minidsp to xover with wavecor-titantweet 2 way at 250hz, will get better feel for sensitivity improvements from using pair when make true passive 3 way incorporating them, eventually.
time to measure and create crossover(s). purposely screw woofer in unaligned holes until install xover.
Oh yeah, and slapped that 1cuft flatpack, guess it was B stock as fitment overly snug, resistant. But meh, xxls10 (830842) and dual css apr10's, put about 450g on each, box freq 21hz.
Does the turtle imply slow bass?
That's a tortoise not a turtle - heh, jk, i dunno really.
Nah, i like turtles - personality trait, want to get a tortoise to roam the house (less messy/stinky than turtles and their water needs). So my eldest son (22 now, poor live in while commute to OSU, though he's boujee) sometimes gives me these things so I display them to show that I appreciate it.
Looking great! What woofer is that?
woofer on the 3way is satori wo24-4, sub is peerless xxls. Had tower 3 way using wo24-sb12cac-sb29neo, but it was a crappy build and easier to switch around, or eek, archive, stand mounts. Though these are targeted to fam room and might not leave the house, maybe if a fall gathering. More the culmination of learning enough to make own 3 ways to my preferred voicing.
WO24 in the stand mounts, 830842 in the sub.
Would been sick looking if the WO24 was white papyrus.
InDIYana Event Website
Yeah, this new lingo is really weird to me because what was once "Cool" became "Bad" and now "Sick" like puking all over the place is considered, good.
(I'm still a social heretic).
I don't see bad as good, and never used it that way. I don't understand the adjective uses of tits or balls, but have heard that too. Sweet, cool, sick, neat, nice (noice), slick, etc work for me. The sick one is related to phrases like "sick skills", and i was around guys that used it at one point.
InDIYana Event Website
No worries, Wolf - "Its all good", or so they say . . .
James Brown was "Super Bad" while Michael Jackson was just "Bad" and I think that was a supposed to be a good thing. (Although it seems they both were kind of bad in the "not good" way.)
The words/phrases my kids use don't make any sense to me... so now I get what my parents thought about my words/phrases
I'm down with what Craig said, I think.
Like Ben mentioned, these ceramidome's finicky, or temperamental responding to every minute changes. But think finally got them to disappear so to speak - i dont mind the >10k run up. Showing second rev, but first rev used the trick of shunt cap before tweeter, for a far out low pass(?) the tug the rising response down and second order electrical at woofer and mid but that wasn't behaving either. Seems like when not get that woofer mid integration working it "feels" like mid not playing low enough but think it more to integration where even if response looks smooth-ish in that 300-500 range, deceiving. So switched to 3rd order electrical across the board, get much nicer integration. Tinkering with mild notch at 1200 that playing with to keep the sb12cac from drawing too much attention to itself - not sure about that yet.
What's the correct name for the R|LCR 'shaper'? Was wondering the benefits vs simple Lpad+shunt cap (6-10uf). Seems the later totally yanks things down where less 'headroom'(?) to mold the conventional 3rd order elect C-shuntL-C portion.
not sure how the 4.7 p core got so oxidized, think Rocco (pet pug) got to it with mystical audiophile spray treatment
I suppose the correct phrase would be "broad, low Q, contour filter for attenuation bypass". Since I affectionately call a cap across the series padding resistor a "treble lift", as many other builders do, I have been calling it a "trough-lift". If the xover wasn't so low, a damped highpass could likely achieve the same result by lowering the hill inherent in the lowend rolloff. However, then a resultant rise in the upper treble would need dealt a softening. It is all how you want to deal with the things.
It is entirely possible that it yields better directivity response with the inherent dip there by not bunching off-axis. I have not yet measured the polar response to find out. That is next on my list.
It is also possible that Wavecor designed the response this way on purpose so it didn't sound so clinical. Wavecor does listen to their drivers without filters to gauge whether they sound good or not, with measurements along for the ride, favoring good sound over flat response in some cases. I read this a long time ago, but i don't recall where.
I see the impedance peak of the mid is giving some fits, and i would wager a 400Hz point might be easier to blend. I would pop a 30 ohm resistor across it to minimize it without cutting too much output.
I'd be curious what your individual driver phases looked like, if you can show that.
InDIYana Event Website
Also good to know it wasn't just me. These boogers really were picky about what I fed them.
If you want to take the 'edge' off of them; Jantzen Z-Superior, Audyn Plus, Auricaps, Zen caps if you can find them, ASC 387X or 386X, maybe a decent mylar (polyethylene terephthalate) film and foil (not a dipped PET polyester metalized film type) or possibly a teflon bypass (0.1uF, Russian FT2 or FT3 are cheap) addition. They did not like the Russian polystyrene or PIO. Caps I would avoid are Audyn Q4, Jantzen Z-Standard, CrossCaps, Dayton, Solen, or anything touted as bright. I feel these tweeters are prone to buzzy voices, gritty metallic treble, sibilance, clinical clarity, and fatigue. Once you get them where they should be, they are quite listenable and clean as a whistle. They will show you all of the flaws in the source material and the builder's efforts in taming them.
InDIYana Event Website
WWA - wolf wisdom applied. Think now close to squared aware, listen to for week or so, touring the genre's and mental moods heh.
Have used z-superior's in a preamp build before for someone and was a cap i definitely could pick up on the improvement. Not sure I'll drop 100+ bucks on the 6.2 & 22uf in tweet circuit but of course currently using 2 from the ug list heh.
Have some 30 and 47uf mkp's from bgmicro days that replace the 1st mid inline electrolytic. Oh yeah, ended up adding a shunt cap at end where wasnt sure if sensing some sizzle echoes, though know my hearing not well up there so maybe just mental.
Anyway, this where at now. Also get the famous JR rev null shots which i like to use as sometimes need to adjust offset in vcad despite supposed not have too doing inline with each driver, use the delta seen in rew rev null vs sim to tweak delay for driver and sim vs real behave nicer.
Though of course now i wonder, if better to bring the woofer-mid to 450-500 and back to second that seems to work also. Then the sb12cac little less involved though. Had tried, in sim, to get higher mid-tweet xover but some 1600hz ish lump wasnt playing nice, was acting like a pivot point. Though makes me think need off axis measurements to have better understanding. Guess give both a listen.
edit: already did some quick crude ab-ing. the 300hz skoach crisper, but think it's also from having less warmth. But main thing, at nearish field, it's makes the mid stand out more, like's it a little lonely. The 2nd order, which landed about 420, more cohesive. Was off work most of today as have to work tonight for a stress test.
I've had midrange results similar to both of those. I like the look of the 12dB highpass, as it is a broader blend, and it eases the lower end load for the mid. Is the impedance okay?
InDIYana Event Website
I was going to ask that same question. Sometimes the impedance dictates what's best or what's even acceptable.