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Help with picking a midrange
I am working on a new 3-way using the Fountek NeoCd3.5H tweeter, and the Dayton Sig180 woofer. I used the Fountek NeoCd3.5H with a 6.5” woofer crossed just over 3k and did not like it. I would like to cross just a bit higher this time around 3.5k and use a small midrange. I am thinking 3-4” or 2” dome. I got a PE gift card from my family for Christmas, so I am looking at their options for this right now. I would like to keep it around ~$50 or less. I will go higher if it is worth it. I was originally looking at the Dayton Audio RS52AN-8 dome mid, but I have heard mixed reviews on how it sounds. The Dynavox LY401F looks decent from what I can tell, but have not seen too many reviews on it. I am curious on your opinions.
Comments
I have a pair of RS52F that I'm going to sell. $55 shipped for the pair. I have the silk version because some people have claimed it sounds better than the aluminum version (although I am not aware that it measures better). Disclaimer: I'm going to sell them because I was told the HiVi DMB-A sound better.
I used the LY401F in some 3-way speakers that I dragged around some events in 2022. I'm still not finished because I'm trying to get some tweeter issues fixed, but the midrange is nice. Nick (ugly_woofer) used the 3" version recently and it sounded good too. Chuck (isaeagle) used 4" as full range here https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/speaker-project-gallery/1291387-the-cigarellos
The other options I have been debating are the Sig120 and RS100P.
I have a pair of RS100P-8 that are in perfect condition if you are interested.
The RS100P 8ohm is a little lower sensitivity than I was looking for. Not much room for padding with that one.
I think the SIG120 is still unknown at this time, I'm not aware of anyone using it, although there might have been a build or two at SDC.
RS100 aluminum version is good and I assume the paper ones are too.
BUT.... Consider going over your limit and get the SB Acoustics SB12CACS25-4 on sale for $55 at Madisound (I realize it also doesn't let you use your PE gift card).
The current usual lower price good mids seem to be peerless tc9fd18, and Dayton pc105.
The peerless truncated frame shape is obnoxious to try to recess and the recent batches have had the foam gasket glued to the front. No doubt intended for rear mount but imo it doesn't look too bad front mounted anyway.
Pc105 pincushion frame can be an acquired taste but could be covered with some Amazon grill trim rings... https://i.imgur.com/wVVva7H.png
From my research: Rs52an seems to get a bad rap since the hd3 distortion peak from it's breakup prevents it from being successfully crossed over as high as folks want to. And it's small diaphragm size limits how low it can be highpassed (800ish hz). So it has a rather narrow usable bandwidth. However with your selected woofer and tweeter that shouldn't be a problem.
Speaking of. Since the woofer is a 6.5 that probably opens up other 2"-3" options too. But they aren't used as often so there is little info out there besides factory sheets. Cue wolf for those little drivers he used in the bottleships. Audible physics 220-cp? The aluminum color dust cap could complement the ribbon.
I used the Hivi DMB-A in a 3 way with a Fountek CD1.0 tweeter an loved it.
https://diy.midwestaudio.club/discussion/1678/charlies-mcm-project/p1
Ron
If you let the SIG180 cover the BSL (assuming these will be stand mounted, out away from the wall) the RS100P-8 will easily keep up. You will most likely have to pad it a little to cover the bandpass gain.
But all that said: I would seriously consider the new MAC-04 drivers. What's not to like? $20 each, great build quality, smooth FR, low distortion, plenty of sensitivity, can cross LR4 at 3.5kHz... win win win
+1 for the MAC-04, and not just because it is a MAC driver. Not sure there is a better mid for $20 out there. Easy to mount, as well.
Honestly I don't think there is.
That buyout SB-Aerial 4" (for $10 more) is another total winner but unfortunately they are now NLA. The currently available SB12MNRX2-25-04 is a fantastic midrange but at $60.50 each is out of the conversation.
Hello,
I have tested many of the drivers mentioned in this thread.
The following graphs may be useful to you.
LY302F:
LY401F:
PC105-8:
TG9FD10-04:
RS100P-8:
Cheers!
Since he is shopping PE to use a gift certificate, though, the mileage is limited for the MAC-4. I agree it however looks to handle the job well.
At PE;
PC105-4
PC83-4
4MR60-4
DSA90-8
There are others...
InDIYana Event Website
Buy the MAC-04 drivers and use that awesome family PE gift certificate to buy all (or some) of the xo parts, ports, terminal cups, etc...
I have used the SB12MNRX2-25-04 in a 3-way with the RS270 and the SB29RDNC-C000-4 tweeter for a buddy. They sound really good. I also think the MAC04 would be a great driver. I really liked the MAC06 and plan to use more of the MAC drivers soon. My original plan was to use either a 2" dome mid, or a 3" cone mid. The dome was preferred, but reviews seems to be mixed for the cheaper ones. I think I am going to give the HiVi DMB-A a try. I think it may be fun to try in this scenario. I will be using it in a very narrow bandwidth, so it shouldn't be stressed too much. A lot of the options that measure well would be tough to flush mount, and I want to use a hardwood baffle where I don't want to screw up.
That HiVi DMB-A sounds great after it breaks-in so don't judge it too quickly - nice detail and a complement to a planar tweeter IME recently.
@johnny5jz
Are you able to let us know your cabinet dimensions of the design of the "Fountek NeoCd3.5H with a 6.5” woofer crossed just over 3k" that you did not like? Also, do you have any off axis measurements, minimum 30 degrees?
The reason I ask is because I wonder whether it's a diffraction issue and/or a directivity issue?
Goran @ Audioexcite.com measured https://audioexcite.com/?page_id=4178 this model some years ago and by his account, based on frequency response and harmonic distortion "a 3-3.5kHz cross-over point can work if steep filters are used e.g. a fourth-order (acoustical), third-order (electrical)"
Here's my interpretation of this tweeter:
On a typical 9.5" wide baffle with a 3/4" roundover, if one is able to completely flatten the frequency response with a heavily optimized crossover, this is what the off axis measurements look like:
Reference:
https://www.audioexcite.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/NeoCD3.5H_Freq-0-15-22deg-1024x345.jpg
https://www.audioexcite.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/NeoCD3.5H_Freq-30-45-60deg-1024x345.jpg
When Goran matched it to a small 5" mid-woofer on a narrower 7.5" wide baffle, he crossed it @ 3KHz with an acoustic LR4 slope. Goran accepted a dip at 3KHz in the on axis...
Reference:
https://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=5710
Here it is again, on the same scale as the other above for comparison:
If he had massages his crossover for a completely flat on axis response, this is what the off-axis responses would have looked like:
Reference:
https://www.audioexcite.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/KT-M2-Freq-0-15-22.5deg-R26.8.jpg
https://www.audioexcite.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/KT-M2-Freq-30-45-60deg-R26.8.jpg
Although the narrower 7.5” cabinet has less peaking than the 9.5” cabinet, as we can see, in both cases, if the on-axis is made completely flat, then there's excess energy at measured at 3Khz at all the other angles. Why is this?
Here's another user, who found an weird anomaly when he measured it in his cabinet.
When he measured it without the cabinet- it's perfectly flat.
Reference:
https://ampslab-spk.com/2021/02/25/fountek-cd35h/
Side quest:
So it's the effect of the cabinet aka diffraction signature! Of course!!
This is what users like @charlielaub have discovered- eliminate the cabinet... eliminate the cabinet diffraction!
/end side quest.
Going back to the NeoCD3.5H in a cabinet, I see a few options
a) Accept the dip on-axis response at 3KHz, but don't try to correct for it ie. don't aim for flat on axis response.
b) Use the NeoCD3.5H where it plays best. Put it another way, I would avoid using it below ~3.4Khz:
So if one moves the Fc up to >3.4KHz or higher eg. ~4K, then you can minimize the off axis peaking.
But now you need a mid-woofer that could play an octave past 3.4K to 4Khz eg. 6.8 - 8Khz on-axis, AND off-axis.
Most 6.5" drivers can't do this very well.
And if a 5" is just OK, what is more ideal ?
A 4" ?
A 3" ?
A 2" ?
Well, it depends on your baffle/cabinet.
TBC ...
TBC2 ...
Then we go shopping with your $50 gift voucher at PE for suitable candidate...
What an incredible effort and assistance ^ you have offered here Thanh!!!
I bow to your tutelage and in your general direction.
LOL. [in a very good way].
I thought the mids on your speakers sounded really good.
PE's advice on a vented alignment - hilarious!
https://ampslab-spk.com/2016/10/04/dayton-rs52an/
@tktran thanks for your awesome response. I used the HiVi L6-4R in an 8" wide baffle. I don't have the measurements on me, but it was a directivity issue, and I also don't think I like a 6.5" driver playing up that high. That is why I thought a small mid would work the best with this tweeter to get better directivity matching.
@johnny5jz
Will your new design will you still use an 8 inch wide Cabinet? Any facets or round rovers?
I’ve modelled different mid sizes. If you can advise me of new cabinet dimensions, I will let you know what model is “better”
spoiler alert- Based on my preliminary models I think it’s gonna be the 2 inch dome/cone
I think the "usual suspects" have been listed and are all fine choices. The two biggest differentiators - price and looks.
I forgot, but the speaker with the LY401F is in my avatar. I like the way it looked, but I can easily imagine it being a show-stopper for someone else. Same thing with white, or silver depending on the other design aspects.
Well the quickest/fastest route would be to go down the same route as Scott, who probably has more experience with that L6-4R that anyone, after he re-jigged the crossover for the 3 way HiVi 3.1 kit:
https://sites.google.com/view/sehlin-sound-solutions/hivi-diy-3-1-modifications
There are full CTA2034A style measurements (and recommendation) here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/hivi-3-1a-diy-speaker-with-sehlin-mod-review.15802/
Clearly Scott knows what he is doing!
The HiVi kit is 8.5” wide; so minimal differences will result from a 8” wide cabinet.
@ScottS - what are your thoughts?
Do you think Johnny should use the same dome?
Is the DMN-B still available?
If not, are there alternatives that would required only minimal crossover tweaks to the mid-dome LP and HP?
That way he will only have to “borrow” your crossover and be within tweaking distance for the HP of his CD3.5H…
My vote would be to use the DMN-B because my data suggests a 2” device would be ideal, and 2nd, as Scott has demonstrated, if you get the crossover right, it will sing!
The only snag is that it isn’t available at Parts Express, AFAIK…
The DMN-B measures the same as the DMN-A, which is still available from PE, but is $85 each. I used the DMN-A in my Indium 7 project, which was well received back in 2016. Other than price, I think it would work very well in this project (with either the L6-4R obviously, or the Sig180). I do prefer the DMN-A to the DMB-A because the flange is smaller and the chamber is deeper.
For the financial guidelines of this project, I would probably vote for the MAC-04 or the Dayton RS100P-4. I heard a nice project with the horn loaded Fountek tweeter about 10 years ago, which I believe used the 4" Tang Band bamboo cone mid. Those are still available, but they want $120 for them - crazy. I think the RS100P directivity and response up top will match up well.
Sehlin Sound Solutions
So, I ended up using my gift card to get 2 more GRS 12SW-4HE subwoofers. I thought it would be fun to have 4 of them. That then opens up my purchase location options. I do think that a 2 or 3 inch driver will work best from a directivity standpoint in this design. It will be an 8-8.5 inch wide baffle that will be heavily faceted. I will be for sure using the SIG180. I used the HiVi in my Monkey Coffin 3ways as a mid. I also do think a 2" dome mid would be fun to try in this build.
Be sure to follow the dome-mid thread over at diyaudio. The SS Discovery 7608 is getting a lot of love there, but I think visually, the MDM55 is fitting to mate with the flats of the Fountek. Dual woofers would look cool too, but at 4 ohms each there really isn't an inherent advantage in that.
InDIYana Event Website
Thanks Wolf! I have been checking in on that thread. This project will push out a month or so now till I get the 2 subs finished, so I will have some time to continue on the research path.
Well in that case, somebody's got to give the Tang Band 50-1426SE a try...
Sehlin Sound Solutions
Brian Powers used it back in around 2008, only person I know to have. However, the dome source dried up and TB had to develop their own domes for it and the 3". Once they had those done, they reintroduced them, then started selling them again in the current models. Not sure if the old info back in the pages of PETT (if there) would matter much about the newer reissued domes. I think Yevgeniy measured them....
InDIYana Event Website
OK for part 2...
Recall that in part 1:
Here's the Fountek NeoCD3.5H on 7.5" cabinet with 3/4" round-overs crossed over at 3KHz to an SB15MFC driver: https://diy.midwestaudio.club/uploads/editor/5l/uex9bc4322yy.png
Reference:
https://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=5710
First we stuff all the off-axis data from Audioexcite.com into VituixCAD2 and look at the region of interest- namely 3Khz to 20Khz.
So ignore anything left of 3Khz:
First I flatten the response:
Then I apply a 2nd order Linkwitz Riley crossover at 6KHz:
Next I ask VituixCAD2 to generate some frequency responses for a virtual 2" circular (piston) driver:
Let's "Feed (those frequencies to the) speaker":
Here's the on axis of a 2" circular (flat piston) MF in it's region of interest:
Other graphs:
Flattened and crossed at LR2 @ 6KHz:
Bring in the NeoCD3.5H, invert the polarity of the driver (needed for LR2)
Other graphs:
Following the same method, here's a virtual 3" circular flat piston MF on a 7.5”wide baffle, with 3/4” round overs, crossed at LR2 4KHz to a real Fountek NeoCD3.5H.
And a 4" circular flat piston MF crossed at LR2 4KHz…
If you've read this far and haven't quit, please bear with me.
The goal of this method is to see the effects of driver size on directivity. As we know, when we design our crossover, we can generally on correct for one frequency response eg. on-axis, or 10 degrees off axis.
All others must follow. Thus, I propose this method as one way of short-listing what size driver we may want to look at when intending to purchase, when we already have existing driver in an existing box.
Caveat #1- these responses for the 2, 3 and 4 inch mid drivers are theoretical. They are based on circular flat piston drivers. Any real driver, being a cone (concave) or dome (convex) with their surrounds and dustcaps and unique characteristics will exhibit different frequency responses, along with resonances and their unique off axis behavior.
So this method of simulating different size drivers DOES NOT replace the need for taking in-box measurements with your actual real driver.
Caveat #2- Would you match a real 18" driver to a 3/4" dome in a real speaker? Probably not. Same with the simulation. Beware that there are limitation of what your midrange driver can do in the high frequencies and in the low frequencies. So ensure your simulation uses the appropriate frequency range limits.
Caveat #2- crossover points and slopes can and will affect directivity. I've chosen acoustic LR2 6KHz and 4Khz here. But feel free to experiment (it's quite trivial to do with in software)
We never learn if we never make mistakes. I welcome critical feedback.
@johnny5jz and mods
feel free to move this to New thread if deemed too OT.