Hey guys. I'm pretty late to the party. But, I'm intrigued and the efforts I potentially spend here could end up supporting a future project I have in mind.
Rule from InDIYana site:
"Contours out front are allowed but then affect both or more units, padding on widebander allowed, but no actual electrical highpass on widebander allowed."
@6thplanet said:
We'll see, everything looks legal?
Don't L4 and R6 on the widebander in Eric's schematic constitute a "contour filter" (padded shelf)?
If this is OK, what is meant by "contours?" Apparently, I misunderstand what "contour" is.
I guess I'm also not clear how the the placement of the "contours" (affecting all drivers)... affects the spirit of the competition. For sure, no high pass filter is understood. Why does having specific notches or shelf filters on only the 0.5 woofer(s) or only the widebander affect the spirit or intent? If I understand this, I think I'll have a much easier time.
I'm NOT trying to throw a wrench in Eric's gears (sooooo sorry if I cause a problem here!) - I'm just confused after seeing his network, because I'd really like to "contour" the widebander separately.
P.S. It's hard enough debating the project efforts along with an 850 mile trek... but you had to pick Mothers Day weekend too? LOL
The example network I drew was more a case of showing possibilities without trying to show everything, and still showing what is not okay. It is better to affect both in unison in something like this theme so the overlapped ranges remain relatively minimum phase between adjacent units. This is why I had the parallel contour out front in the example. Ladder delays are also allowed if deemed necessary to adjust phase coherence.
As to scheduling...
I tried to avoid all of the other possible scheduling conflicts, and keep it as close to April as possible to avoid interaction with possible adjacent monthly speaker event slots. This included;
The Vera Bradley Sale, as all hotel rooms in the area are full over that time frame.
AXPONA
Easter
Spring Break for coworkers for my allowed time off.
Memorial Day/My wedding anniversary
Upcoming Wedding for family member.
Unfortunately, I could not avoid all of them completely. However, Chuck and I figured with most people being within a certain distance range and leaving Saturday evening or early Sunday morning for home, that it wouldn't affect most scheduling conflicts for Sunday/Mothers' Day. If I could have avoided that as well, I would have.
Look at it as a driver that is run full bandwidth without highpass, and a 90mm minimum frame diameter. From earlier in the thread- no exciters. Since it is a tweeterectomy theme, this means no ascribed tweeter units. Widerange, wideband, or full-range does not refer to midrange specific units.
Not sure what else you would be referring to in your question...
@Wolf said:
Widerange, wideband, or full-range does not refer to midrange specific units.
Not sure what else you would be referring to in your question...
It seemed clear that dome mids weren't an option. But, there seems to be a pretty big gray area with cone drivers.
Does it have to be called a "full-range" or "widerange" or "wideband" or ... ??
For instance, there was some discussion earlier in the thread about the RS100 as an option. Dayton/PE call this a "Woofer" (4Ω) and "Midwoofer" (8Ω). If it's referred to as a "woofer," is that also OK?
And some drivers that are labeled "full range" some might consider "midrange." Some drivers are called both a "woofer" and "midrange" in the heading description.
It's a bit fuzzy to me. Just don't want to be exiled.
@Tieftoener said:
Hey guys. I'm pretty late to the party. But, I'm intrigued and the efforts I potentially spend here could end up supporting a future project I have in mind.
Rule from InDIYana site:
"Contours out front are allowed but then affect both or more units, padding on widebander allowed, but no actual electrical highpass on widebander allowed."
@6thplanet said:
We'll see, everything looks legal?
Don't L4 and R6 on the widebander in Eric's schematic constitute a "contour filter" (padded shelf)?
If this is OK, what is meant by "contours?" Apparently, I misunderstand what "contour" is.
I guess I'm also not clear how the the placement of the "contours" (affecting all drivers)... affects the spirit of the competition. For sure, no high pass filter is understood. Why does having specific notches or shelf filters on only the 0.5 woofer(s) or only the widebander affect the spirit or intent? If I understand this, I think I'll have a much easier time.
I'm NOT trying to throw a wrench in Eric's gears (sooooo sorry if I cause a problem here!) - I'm just confused after seeing his network, because I'd really like to "contour" the widebander separately.
P.S. It's hard enough debating the project efforts along with an 850 mile trek... but you had to pick Mothers Day weekend too? LOL
I agree. L4 and R6 constitute a contour that only effects the widebander. So according to the very specific rules is not allowed. I would have liked to have done the same thing. It would have benefitted my design greatly but the rules clearly say any contour must be out front and effect both drivers. I think it would be unethical to change the rules after some of us have already designed, built, voiced, and completed our projects according to the original rules.
There is no specific rule stating "no contour filters on the wideband only.
It states:
"Contours out front are allowed but then affect both or more units, padding on widebander allowed, but no actual electrical highpass on widebander allowed."
....any competition with rules is subject to reading between the lines.
Based on the design rules, the wideband driver will need to handle unfiltered bass signals. In my opinion, a dome midrange could technically be used, BUT probably not a good option due to the limited travel. Who knows though, maybe it could actually work? Experimentation keeps this hobby alive...
Wideband drivers have many names, some woofers could be a reasonable choice.
If I haven't been exiled yet, you probably have nothing to worry about. It's all for fun, anyways...
Scott, the usage of the driver as wideband is what is mainly important in this case. However, I don't think I would allow "tweeters" to be utilized, which would likely include Dome midranges or old time designation "squawkers." There are a lot of various wideband woofers and midranges that get used as other things or overlap and blur the lines. If I had to say what the thought direction was for the theme, it would be a conical driver used as a full range single unit, 20-20k. This means a lot of those blurry-defined drivers do apply.
And, I have to eat my words a little bit here. I will fix the previous answer to Scott, as I did clearly state no contouring singly. My apologies to all here. To that direction....
Let me restate, that the circuit graphic I posted is a possible generic example of what could be done, not what should be done, primarily to show what cannot be done. "More or fewer circuits can be utilized."
Then further down, this was stated;
"The circuit is drawn so the CR would affect both the wideband and the woofer; on purpose. This shown to be an LCR, LR, or CR. If you contour, do it out front to affect both. This is why the woofer is intended to be cascaded from after the wideband or after the contour."
This means Drew's build is fine, as there is no contour at all. Just to clarify.
These kinds of drivers have wildly varying frequency responses, with rises, huge dips, and large peaks. Then you add the woofer complement, and that stirs the pot of questionables into mud. Pull the right filter out to strain and pull out the wanted qualities. What I did not say is "USE THIS STRICT FILTER LAYOUT", but you can if wanted and still likely get somewhere decent. The rules have not changed, but my memory has now been corrected.
Thank you for keeping me in line, Craig.
What Eric did is not outside the lines of the direction of the theme, but the secondary contour is. I feel he designed well within the spirit of this theme other than the LR at the driver. Sorry, Eric. However, If moved out front, this would still be acceptable. It is in the wrong spot is all.
My thoughts in the direction I go have yet to materialize, but I don't think I'll have to make my filters that complicated to get there, nor do I feel ill have to stray very far from the circuit posted.
The contour filter adjustment back to OG definitely puts a big wrench in my gears... and put a rather large nail in the coffin for what I had hoped to accomplish. But, that's OK. Maybe I can make something for the open entry category anyway. Will mull things over for a while.
Comments
Put me down for 1 theme and 1 non theme. Hope to be back on feet early mid Feb
I'll probably have one theme and one non theme. As long as I can make it.
I plan to bring my chubby faced eggs and some Formica for anyone who wants some, except Drew
Hey guys. I'm pretty late to the party. But, I'm intrigued and the efforts I potentially spend here could end up supporting a future project I have in mind.
Rule from InDIYana site:
"Contours out front are allowed but then affect both or more units, padding on widebander allowed, but no actual electrical highpass on widebander allowed."
Don't L4 and R6 on the widebander in Eric's schematic constitute a "contour filter" (padded shelf)?
If this is OK, what is meant by "contours?" Apparently, I misunderstand what "contour" is.
I guess I'm also not clear how the the placement of the "contours" (affecting all drivers)... affects the spirit of the competition. For sure, no high pass filter is understood. Why does having specific notches or shelf filters on only the 0.5 woofer(s) or only the widebander affect the spirit or intent? If I understand this, I think I'll have a much easier time.
I'm NOT trying to throw a wrench in Eric's gears (sooooo sorry if I cause a problem here!) - I'm just confused after seeing his network, because I'd really like to "contour" the widebander separately.
P.S. It's hard enough debating the project efforts along with an 850 mile trek... but you had to pick Mothers Day weekend too?
LOL
The example network I drew was more a case of showing possibilities without trying to show everything, and still showing what is not okay. It is better to affect both in unison in something like this theme so the overlapped ranges remain relatively minimum phase between adjacent units. This is why I had the parallel contour out front in the example. Ladder delays are also allowed if deemed necessary to adjust phase coherence.
As to scheduling...
I tried to avoid all of the other possible scheduling conflicts, and keep it as close to April as possible to avoid interaction with possible adjacent monthly speaker event slots. This included;
The Vera Bradley Sale, as all hotel rooms in the area are full over that time frame.
AXPONA
Easter
Spring Break for coworkers for my allowed time off.
Memorial Day/My wedding anniversary
Upcoming Wedding for family member.
Unfortunately, I could not avoid all of them completely. However, Chuck and I figured with most people being within a certain distance range and leaving Saturday evening or early Sunday morning for home, that it wouldn't affect most scheduling conflicts for Sunday/Mothers' Day. If I could have avoided that as well, I would have.
InDIYana Event Website
Thanks for clarifying the flexibility on contouring. That helps a lot.
One more thing -
Are there any other criterion that define "widebander" beyond this description from the event site?
As for the Mothers Day scheduling, was just ribbing you
Look at it as a driver that is run full bandwidth without highpass, and a 90mm minimum frame diameter. From earlier in the thread- no exciters. Since it is a tweeterectomy theme, this means no ascribed tweeter units. Widerange, wideband, or full-range does not refer to midrange specific units.
Not sure what else you would be referring to in your question...
InDIYana Event Website
It seemed clear that dome mids weren't an option. But, there seems to be a pretty big gray area with cone drivers.
Does it have to be called a "full-range" or "widerange" or "wideband" or ... ??
For instance, there was some discussion earlier in the thread about the RS100 as an option. Dayton/PE call this a "Woofer" (4Ω) and "Midwoofer" (8Ω). If it's referred to as a "woofer," is that also OK?
And some drivers that are labeled "full range" some might consider "midrange." Some drivers are called both a "woofer" and "midrange" in the heading description.
It's a bit fuzzy to me. Just don't want to be exiled.
I agree. L4 and R6 constitute a contour that only effects the widebander. So according to the very specific rules is not allowed. I would have liked to have done the same thing. It would have benefitted my design greatly but the rules clearly say any contour must be out front and effect both drivers. I think it would be unethical to change the rules after some of us have already designed, built, voiced, and completed our projects according to the original rules.
There is no specific rule stating "no contour filters on the wideband only.
It states:
"Contours out front are allowed but then affect both or more units, padding on widebander allowed, but no actual electrical highpass on widebander allowed."
....any competition with rules is subject to reading between the lines.
Based on the design rules, the wideband driver will need to handle unfiltered bass signals. In my opinion, a dome midrange could technically be used, BUT probably not a good option due to the limited travel. Who knows though, maybe it could actually work? Experimentation keeps this hobby alive...
Wideband drivers have many names, some woofers could be a reasonable choice.
If I haven't been exiled yet, you probably have nothing to worry about. It's all for fun, anyways...
Scott, the usage of the driver as wideband is what is mainly important in this case. However, I don't think I would allow "tweeters" to be utilized, which would likely include Dome midranges or old time designation "squawkers." There are a lot of various wideband woofers and midranges that get used as other things or overlap and blur the lines. If I had to say what the thought direction was for the theme, it would be a conical driver used as a full range single unit, 20-20k. This means a lot of those blurry-defined drivers do apply.
And, I have to eat my words a little bit here. I will fix the previous answer to Scott, as I did clearly state no contouring singly. My apologies to all here. To that direction....
Let me restate, that the circuit graphic I posted is a possible generic example of what could be done, not what should be done, primarily to show what cannot be done. "More or fewer circuits can be utilized."
Then further down, this was stated;
"The circuit is drawn so the CR would affect both the wideband and the woofer; on purpose. This shown to be an LCR, LR, or CR. If you contour, do it out front to affect both. This is why the woofer is intended to be cascaded from after the wideband or after the contour."
This means Drew's build is fine, as there is no contour at all. Just to clarify.
These kinds of drivers have wildly varying frequency responses, with rises, huge dips, and large peaks. Then you add the woofer complement, and that stirs the pot of questionables into mud. Pull the right filter out to strain and pull out the wanted qualities. What I did not say is "USE THIS STRICT FILTER LAYOUT", but you can if wanted and still likely get somewhere decent. The rules have not changed, but my memory has now been corrected.
Thank you for keeping me in line, Craig.
What Eric did is not outside the lines of the direction of the theme, but the secondary contour is. I feel he designed well within the spirit of this theme other than the LR at the driver. Sorry, Eric. However, If moved out front, this would still be acceptable. It is in the wrong spot is all.
My thoughts in the direction I go have yet to materialize, but I don't think I'll have to make my filters that complicated to get there, nor do I feel ill have to stray very far from the circuit posted.
InDIYana Event Website
Ok
The contour filter adjustment back to OG definitely puts a big wrench in my gears... and put a rather large nail in the coffin for what I had hoped to accomplish. But, that's OK. Maybe I can make something for the open entry category anyway. Will mull things over for a while.