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2025 C-Killa?
I received a request to teach DIY speaker theory, modeling and building a bookshelf speaker pair for about 5-6 adult students at my local MAKE.
My first proposal suggested a RS150/XT25 ported with a Vistaton WG148. Probably about $400/pr all said and done. High value!
Feedback was that this was WAY over budget.
So now I need advice for a 2025 version of the venerable C-Killa. No more than about $150/pr drivers and crossover.
I don’t want the final result to suck!
Thanks in advance.
But Chahly - Stahkist don't want speakers that look good, Stahkist wants speakers that sound good!
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Probably depends on the length of such a course as far as how deep you can get into the subject vs how far the final project goes beyond the lessons that are able to be covered.
Something like my project for next year's Indiyana theme would cover much of enclosure and baffle design theory (bass reflex, baffle step) while only lightly getting into the electronic side with a lowpass that was calculated with a basic online 2nd order calculator. Under $30 in drivers per side, a cap and a coil. I also used a pair of unmodified PE press in ports per side for the ~.5cf enclosure. Seemed like it would be a nice toe-dipper to affirm the basic theories without getting too complex for a first build.
Duane Brown's Dayton 4 sounds good and is cheap. The only downside is it uses a series crossover, so that would be tough when it gets to the modelling part of the class.
Does the MAKE group have access to a 3D printer?
My Stances, Synchaetas, Sophomores, and Zingers are still viable designs.
The C-Killa is still viable too. Both drivers are available.
Duanebro's 'Dayton4' is a solid performer for not much outlay.
Or are you looking for a design you'll build from the ground up?
InDIYana Event Website
I think what you are looking for is something like the "Chachos" https://jfcomponents.com/product-page/the-chachos-speaker-kit-pair
If you want to start from scratch and work through the design process, the MAC-04 would work well with other budget tweeters, like the Peerless DX20 or Dayton ND25FW (which was used in the C-Notes).
Sehlin Sound Solutions
+1, great design.
Yes, I was going to suggest three options with MAC drivers.
Chachos and Brad's YTmac-05's. Both under $150 drivers and xo. They come with CNC baffle, but if you are making it yourself, maybe that can bring the cost down a little.
I have a design with the MAC-05 and the HiVi TN25 but it is in a 3D printed waveguide, thus my question above about access to a 3D printer. About $120 drivers and xo. People heard them at InDIYana and Detroit.
Something else to keep in mind: If you are going to make 5 or more pair, you are over 10 drivers, xo parts, etc. PE has about 5-10% off on most things if you get 10+. Additionally, they will almost surely have 10-12% around Christmas and/or New Year. So, if adding up stuff at PE, you can probably take 15-20% off the price that you would normally pay for just a pair of things.
Something based on the Peerless 830656, perhaps? Cheap, flush mountable, easy to work with, sounds good and can work in a variety of cabinets.
Craig's Zenvos with it sound great, but the tweeter is NLA.
I daresay the 830656 could work with the ND25. For a more detailed sound, the SB13 polymer frame could work.
Or is the idea to use a metal driver to teach people how to deal with peaks, resonance etc?
Geoff
Your target audiance would probably like a smaller speaker even of it is limited in output. 4-5inch bookshelf that could also work at a desktop speaker. Most people live with a sound bar and pc speakers.
Madisound has the SB Acoustics coax's on sale, i.e. SB16PFCR25-4 6in for $45.00 ???
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/sb-acoustics-sb16pfcr25-4-coax-6-paper-cone-coaxial-4-ohm-round/
>
SB Acoustics provides suggested crossovers for its co-ax drivers, so that could be an option. However, the XOs are provided on their own own without the cabinet size specified, so some tweaking might be in order.
I haven't used the co-ax but its SB16pfc cousin sounds really nice. There are also SB13 and SB12 co-axial drivers if a smaller cabinet is desired.
Geoff
$400 buys a TV.
That’s why few wants to spend >$300 on a pair of speakers anymore… except for the few hardcore guys who think in cubic ft.
Does anyone know of any other builds out there with the 830656, it is on sale at Madisound for $14.50.
I think Craig has used it several times.
I think it's the mid in the Tarkus, and I know it's in the Armadillo and Lil' 'Dillos.
RonE used it in the original C-Notes. Ryan Bouma as well likely same year.
Geoff Millar used it a few times.
Tom S used it.
And that is just the tip of the iceberg, because this driver is long in the tooth and had the flattest of midband responses available. I know jkrutke measured it back when, and used it too, IIRC, giving it some more street clout.
InDIYana Event Website
As well as Wolf's suggestions, there's a German retail DIY project "CT275" with the 830656 and a Peerless DX20 tweeter. The product page doesn't give you the schematic, but it lists the parts, so you could work it out with sim software.
I've used the 830656 in a two way with the BC25TG - which I later re-purposed into the Zenvos; and in Ron's E's C Notes with the XTSC90. The latter was an MTM, so maybe it could be adapted to a TM by tweaking the XO - same might apply to Ryan's design.
There's a MLTL design from Peter Blix which uses a a BC25SC55 tweeter, a minimalist XO and a small tower cabinet, but perhaps it could be adapted to a bookshelf.
I like that this driver doesn't need counter sinking!
Geoff
I've been listening to the 830656 paired with a BC25SC for years in my editing rig at work. That's what's in my profile pic. I know some don't like that tweeter, but it's hard to go wrong with that woofer, even if I didn't do it complete justice way back when I built those. The ND28F-6 would probably be even better and Brad has both in stock right now. I think those would make a very easy on the ears speaker for not much $.
I've used the 830656 a couple of times. In fact it is the woofer I'm using in my Indy 2025 theme project. Its only downside is that it wants a fairly large ported enclosure to reach its potential.
Before I built Ron's C-notes, I had thought of "The Saffrons", but for the purposes of this thread, they're a TMM with a high XO parts count.
However, there's a discussion of how the 830656 behaves in different cabinet volumes, which might be relevant for DIY speaker theory.
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/the-saffrons/
Would a TriTrix TM fit within budget?
Geoff
My C-Notes placed second to the Saffrons. The C-Notes were 1.2 cu. ft.
Thanks guys - you are the greatest!
Been on vacation the last few days with limited surfing time and internet access.
I will carefully review all your suggestions.
At this time, leaning towards a MAC-05 build...
I used the BC25SC in 2 or 3 builds a few years ago. Nothing to object to, sort of like it better than the Dayton equivalent ND25. Since I liked the ND25 a whole lot more than the ND20, I'll bet the ND28 is even better...
I have used the BC25SC once before and it was smooth and easy to listen to, easy to work with. A solid value for sure.
I should add that is impertinent of me to suggest changes to someone else's excellent designs
Geoff
David Crewe built some very interesting projects the ~5 years or so he was present on PETT, and always had a different kind of artistic flair.
IIRC, I didn't get to hear any of those Iron Driver designs because they were Northeast USA based. It's a great driver, and there are many ways to utilize it.
InDIYana Event Website
I don't know if you can get much of anything near the performance for what the ND28F-6 is going for right now. Brad had said he tests and matches pairs by impedance sweep for the kits. I'm not sure if that's part his regular product receiving pipeline, but you might be able to talk him into doing that for you too.
...Chachos...
Edit: ignore that, you said you were leaning toward the 5 inch
Due to the price sensitivity of the course, and the very tight budget, I'd be happy to find a kit.
Right now tending towards C-Note kit at Parts Express, with the JuleFidelity MAC-04 and MAC-05 partial kits right behind.
I don't think you are being out of order here. We are just spitballing some possibilities.
Just a thought on budget "kits".
two "kits" published on AmpsLabs pages (email for crossover schematic)
FAST project like this:
https://ampslab-spk.com/2023/11/29/flycatcher2/?swcfpc=1
or this:
https://ampslab-spk.com/2023/11/22/gf180-bc25tg15-biamp/?swcfpc=1
PM sent.
Will the people in the course have woodworking skills and does the workshop where they'll be undertaking the training have equipment? If not, I'd suggest you go for a full kit with cabinet, as you indicated above.
The C-Notes look like a good option at $140pr; the Tritrix TM are no longer listed on PE's website anyway.
There have been some crossover tweaks for the C-notes which could be a nice idea to include in the course, e.g. how small changes to a crossover can affect the sound. (Or, being silly, which sort of mods cost money but don't have any effect...not 'connecting' this with anything in particular, of course...)
When I started DIY-ing, the most intimidating things were making the cabinet and soldering the crossover; you can get away with making a few mistakes in the XO, as you can de-solder and fix, but if you mess up cutting and assembling the cabinet, you're stuffed.
Geoff