@GeoffMillar said:
Will the people in the course have woodworking skills and does the workshop where they'll be undertaking the training have equipment? If not, I'd suggest you go for a full kit with cabinet, as you indicated above.
The C-Notes look like a good option at $140pr; the Tritrix TM are no longer listed on PE's website anyway.
There have been some crossover tweaks for the C-notes which could be a nice idea to include in the course, e.g. how small changes to a crossover can affect the sound. (Or, being silly, which sort of mods cost money but don't have any effect...not 'connecting' this with anything in particular, of course...)
When I started DIY-ing, the most intimidating things were making the cabinet and soldering the crossover; you can get away with making a few mistakes in the XO, as you can de-solder and fix, but if you mess up cutting and assembling the cabinet, you're stuffed.
Geoff
We have a complete wood shop, but limited time for construction, so I'm either going to get "someone" to CNC cut the wood, or use something like the C-Notes with knock down cabinet. I'd really like to demonstrate veneering, since not too many people know how.
But Chahly - Stahkist don't want speakers that look good, Stahkist wants speakers that sound good!
When I was a poor college student I had plenty of time but no money. So I didn’t have a problem spending months building a cabinet, learning to veneer, oil and wax, hand cut curved grills, flush mount tweeters, flare my own ports, paint unseen areas gloss black (just to practice painting) … and meanwhile saving up for Scan-Speak parts. This was 2 decades ago when prices were completely different to now ie. US $100 gets you a ScanSpeak 7” midwoofers or 1” dome tweeters
So yeah. I Probably could have taken a bar job and bought some speakers instead of by building… I had friends who did that… to have $ound $ystem$ in$talled in their car.
When I had young children, at home I never had spare time to do anything, so I built kits. Even then it was a push to finish them.
Later, when I was working but the kids were a bit older, I found cabinet makers who were willing to work with me. Most don’t, because they can make more money with big jobs like kitchen renovations, not “just two boxes”
Nowadays if I had time to build something,
I’d spent less time on building beautiful cabinets, and spend time reducing diffraction, modelling directivity, and after all that time taken to measure in 360 degrees in both X and Y planes, you can’t un-see the diffraction mess, the harmonics sprays, or funky cone resonances. Or fact that your tweeter that measures like a rollercoaster on your baffle.
So I start to wonder…after all that, perhaps I should have selected well designed drivers with smooth on AND OFF AXIS responses, and copper caps etc. and spent a bit more time designing my cabinet instead of giving it a pretty face…
That's a good idea. Even when I "help" the iron-on process by using a heat gun to speed the glue tacking up, it still takes hours to do small cabinets.
@Tom_S said:
That's a good idea. Even when I "help" the iron-on process by using a heat gun to speed the glue tacking up, it still takes hours to do small cabinets.
I never used a heat gun to quick dry yellow glue. Even in my damp basement in Atlanta, putting a fan on the parts would usually dry them in an hour or so.
I realized a long time ago that the only way I would ever make money with speakers was if I could "standardize" on 2 or 3 designs, and then easily crank them out, but instead I do a bespoke design each time.
Just now learning the importance of off-axis and power response.
But Chahly - Stahkist don't want speakers that look good, Stahkist wants speakers that sound good!
Yeah, a little help from a heat gun can speed up the tack dry time to 15 minutes most of the time. But I learned the hard way if I try to trim and sand the edges too quickly, I make more work for myself.
Off-axis measurements - yep, it sounds like we are in the same spot on the speaker design learning curve. I still need to build a turntable rig. Clay's contraption looks like an ideal way to go about that.
Smaller cabinets can be simplified quite a bit if using something like the menards shelving boards that already start out as one of the usable dimensions...
7"w x 11.25"h x 9.75"d (.23cf) would just need two 11.25"x9.75" boards and four 9.75"x5.5" ea. Pretty quick to smash out a bunch of those on a tablesaw. A single $8 board would yield over 2x enclosures worth.
What I lack in knowledge regarding speaker building I make up for in my expertise in being a cheapskate...
Menards particle board shelving is the cheapest route (DrewsBrews noted in the DOTD thread that this is on sale again through 12/31)...although you could still go with MDF for the baffles
VenneerSupplies.com sometimes has some good deals in their "Bargain Bin" section. Still may not be cheaper than some cheap venneer options out there. For example, right now they have some B-Stock, peel & stick, paper backed Teak. It has a scratch on it, but for speaker building, maybe that area can be used on the bottom and back. $130 for the 4' x 8' sheet, but is that able that make 4 cabinets??
I realized the hard way that rattle can painting can actually get pretty expensive. I did my MAC-05 build with an $8 sample of Benjamin Moore and a super smooth foam roller. A sample of Behr would be even cheaper.
Cheap plastic terminal cups or binding posts on Amazon are the same thing as at PE but quite a bit cheaper.
I used to use cheap Frost King insulation to line cabinets. It says it is 1" thick, but it is not even 1/2" thick. The new 30mm Sonic Barrier Acousta-Blue at PE is actually 1" thick (or more) and comes out to be cheaper by the sq ft than the (crappy) Frost King.
If you want rounded edges on the baffle, then you need to skip the veneer. Rather than worrying about a pefeclty smooth and maybe glossy baffle, just use Krylon Fusion Matte Textured spray paint. Add two coats of Matte clear if you want to go overboard.
A 2" adjustable port (6" to 11") at PE is $3.49. A 10ft length of Schedule 40 2-inch diameter PVC is $9.48 at Menards. That gets you 10 1-foot ports and 20 6-inch ports, so $0.50 to $1.00 per port.
Those were some good suggestions David.
Interesting program. I find it rather enjoying to fiddle around trying to fit as many enclosure pieces possible on as little board material as possible, with as few as possible saw fence set ups. I aim for no more than 3 or 4 cut setups. That includes all of my braces. That would obviously be impossible if doing mitre joints. But for simple butt joints totally possible.
@a4eaudio said:
What I lack in knowledge regarding speaker building I make up for in my expertise in being a cheapskate...
Menards particle board shelving is the cheapest route (DrewsBrews noted in the DOTD thread that this is on sale again through 12/31)...although you could still go with MDF for the baffles
VenneerSupplies.com sometimes has some good deals in their "Bargain Bin" section. Still may not be cheaper than some cheap venneer options out there. For example, right now they have some B-Stock, peel & stick, paper backed Teak. It has a scratch on it, but for speaker building, maybe that area can be used on the bottom and back. $130 for the 4' x 8' sheet, but is that able that make 4 cabinets??
I realized the hard way that rattle can painting can actually get pretty expensive. I did my MAC-05 build with an $8 sample of Benjamin Moore and a super smooth foam roller. A sample of Behr would be even cheaper.
Cheap plastic terminal cups or binding posts on Amazon are the same thing as at PE but quite a bit cheaper.
I used to use cheap Frost King insulation to line cabinets. It says it is 1" thick, but it is not even 1/2" thick. The new 30mm Sonic Barrier Acousta-Blue at PE is actually 1" thick (or more) and comes out to be cheaper by the sq ft than the (crappy) Frost King.
If you want rounded edges on the baffle, then you need to skip the veneer. Rather than worrying about a pefeclty smooth and maybe glossy baffle, just use Krylon Fusion Matte Textured spray paint. Add two coats of Matte clear if you want to go overboard.
A 2" adjustable port (6" to 11") at PE is $3.49. A 10ft length of Schedule 40 2-inch diameter PVC is $9.48 at Menards. That gets you 10 1-foot ports and 20 6-inch ports, so $0.50 to $1.00 per port.
Good tips in all areas!
For cheap builds, I tend to use 1 inch Wallymart hobby foam. Hot glue it in place.
One guy did a PE iron-on melamine that looked very clean. (For the PE C-Notes)
I'll bet you could veneer across a 1/2 inch roundover if you used veneer softener.
But Chahly - Stahkist don't want speakers that look good, Stahkist wants speakers that sound good!
Imagine someone thinking about doing the course, talking with friends and family about 'why bother, you can just but a pair' etc, then finishing the training and coming home with speakers which looked as good as those, and sounded great with decent drivers and crossover.
Thanks Geoff - yeah, I found that thread, but what concerns me most is the rising treble when driven by cheap Class-D amps. I don't think that will work for the project. Now leaning towards the MAC-05 kit.
But Chahly - Stahkist don't want speakers that look good, Stahkist wants speakers that sound good!
Looks nice a very nice kit, love that the baffle is included.
Just for my own interest, I priced up building the Tritrix TM: drivers $100, knock down cabinets $56, so it's already over budget without the XO parts etc. That, plus the DC28 is on back order anyway, so that idea goes down the S-bend.
Comments
We have a complete wood shop, but limited time for construction, so I'm either going to get "someone" to CNC cut the wood, or use something like the C-Notes with knock down cabinet. I'd really like to demonstrate veneering, since not too many people know how.
I think context is important.
When I was a poor college student I had plenty of time but no money. So I didn’t have a problem spending months building a cabinet, learning to veneer, oil and wax, hand cut curved grills, flush mount tweeters, flare my own ports, paint unseen areas gloss black (just to practice painting) … and meanwhile saving up for Scan-Speak parts. This was 2 decades ago when prices were completely different to now ie. US $100 gets you a ScanSpeak 7” midwoofers or 1” dome tweeters
So yeah. I Probably could have taken a bar job and bought some speakers instead of by building… I had friends who did that… to have $ound $ystem$ in$talled in their car.
When I had young children, at home I never had spare time to do anything, so I built kits. Even then it was a push to finish them.
Later, when I was working but the kids were a bit older, I found cabinet makers who were willing to work with me. Most don’t, because they can make more money with big jobs like kitchen renovations, not “just two boxes”
Nowadays if I had time to build something,
I’d spent less time on building beautiful cabinets, and spend time reducing diffraction, modelling directivity, and after all that time taken to measure in 360 degrees in both X and Y planes, you can’t un-see the diffraction mess, the harmonics sprays, or funky cone resonances. Or fact that your tweeter that measures like a rollercoaster on your baffle.
So I start to wonder…after all that, perhaps I should have selected well designed drivers with smooth on AND OFF AXIS responses, and copper caps etc. and spent a bit more time designing my cabinet instead of giving it a pretty face…
If veneer is an option you might want to consider PSA/peal and stick. Glue time can be hard to plan around.
That's a good idea. Even when I "help" the iron-on process by using a heat gun to speed the glue tacking up, it still takes hours to do small cabinets.
I never used a heat gun to quick dry yellow glue. Even in my damp basement in Atlanta, putting a fan on the parts would usually dry them in an hour or so.
@kenrhodes - thanks - I forgot about PSA veneer
@tktran
Insightful post as always!
I realized a long time ago that the only way I would ever make money with speakers was if I could "standardize" on 2 or 3 designs, and then easily crank them out, but instead I do a bespoke design each time.
Just now learning the importance of off-axis and power response.
Yeah, a little help from a heat gun can speed up the tack dry time to 15 minutes most of the time. But I learned the hard way if I try to trim and sand the edges too quickly, I make more work for myself.
Off-axis measurements - yep, it sounds like we are in the same spot on the speaker design learning curve. I still need to build a turntable rig. Clay's contraption looks like an ideal way to go about that.
Smaller cabinets can be simplified quite a bit if using something like the menards shelving boards that already start out as one of the usable dimensions...
7"w x 11.25"h x 9.75"d (.23cf) would just need two 11.25"x9.75" boards and four 9.75"x5.5" ea. Pretty quick to smash out a bunch of those on a tablesaw. A single $8 board would yield over 2x enclosures worth.
What I lack in knowledge regarding speaker building I make up for in my expertise in being a cheapskate...
Also, if you end up cutting any wood yourself, here is a good Cut Optimizer...
https://www.opticutter.com/cut-list-optimizer
Those were some good suggestions David.
Interesting program. I find it rather enjoying to fiddle around trying to fit as many enclosure pieces possible on as little board material as possible, with as few as possible saw fence set ups. I aim for no more than 3 or 4 cut setups. That includes all of my braces. That would obviously be impossible if doing mitre joints. But for simple butt joints totally possible.
Man, I remember when 2" pvc was under $4.00!
Price up some 4" thin walled PVC drain pipe for ports and dust collection - seems like the world is on drugs . . .
The world is fine. Move on from the trend this conversation is having.
Good tips in all areas!
For cheap builds, I tend to use 1 inch Wallymart hobby foam. Hot glue it in place.
One guy did a PE iron-on melamine that looked very clean. (For the PE C-Notes)
I'll bet you could veneer across a 1/2 inch roundover if you used veneer softener.
yup
WOW!
They look really cool - I could never do a finish like that in a month of Sundays
Geoff
That just reminded me of a local band back in the day called "Month of Sundays" 😎🤘🏼
Imagine someone thinking about doing the course, talking with friends and family about 'why bother, you can just but a pair' etc, then finishing the training and coming home with speakers which looked as good as those, and sounded great with decent drivers and crossover.
That would be something.
Geoff
IS Brad around? I heard about some problems with the C-Notes, and now I'm looking again at the Chachos or the MAC-05 kit.
Brad has a chat button on his website and answers quickly 😊
Discussion on the C-Note crossover, any use to you?
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/c-note-crossover-mod.403712/
Geoff
Thanks Geoff - yeah, I found that thread, but what concerns me most is the rising treble when driven by cheap Class-D amps. I don't think that will work for the project. Now leaning towards the MAC-05 kit.
Except that it's out of stock according to the website:
https://www.jfcomponents.com/product-page/ytmac-05-speaker-kit-pair
Looks nice a very nice kit, love that the baffle is included.
Just for my own interest, I priced up building the Tritrix TM: drivers $100, knock down cabinets $56, so it's already over budget without the XO parts etc. That, plus the DC28 is on back order anyway, so that idea goes down the S-bend.
Geoff