@Wolf said:
If they are close enough to the wall, then the bass may be just fine.
I find that MTMs can have a midrange bloom that needs to be reduced at times, YMMV.
That was Jeff's view also. I started reworking the crossover, and dropped the tweeter level about 2 dB and dropped out of band woofer LP also. Probably leave BSC as is, detailed measurement shows 4 dB, and with both speakers playing, there is plenty of bass.
This woofers raw FRD and with the posted crossover.
But Chahly - Stahkist don't want speakers that look good, Stahkist wants speakers that sound good!
OK, maybe, just maybe, I've nailed the crossover.
For some reason, I could never squash that bump at 4K and still get a decent reverse null and slightly recessed from 1.2K - 3.3K. But this sounds clear, not shouty, even at high volumes. Interested in feedback as always!
I ended up going to 2nd order on the woofers, kept 3rd order on the tweeter.
THD measurements were the same - very low and boring!
The polars came out totally different
Polars 0-50 not normalized
Polars 0-50 normalized.
But Chahly - Stahkist don't want speakers that look good, Stahkist wants speakers that sound good!
Final crossover. In the past, I tried dialing in 6 dB of BSC on some designs, and felt that FR was a bit bloated. This design really does have 6 dB of BSC, and it sounds awesome. As anticipated, the Rival R176CPs are incredible, but not that impressed with the Wavecor TW030WA01 tweeter - it's a pretty bumpy, even when measured nearfield. But distortion is very low, and with very good detail.
But Chahly - Stahkist don't want speakers that look good, Stahkist wants speakers that sound good!
I've found, and this might be a secret that everyone knows, that lower quality drivers generally do not sound as good using full BSC - I think it is distortion related. Quite a few 7" drivers, even midrange priced stuff, just goes to hell below 100Hz at even moderate excursion. I find targeting 4-5db helps to restore some balance on the bottom end. YMMV and as always this is just idle speculation on my part.
I was happy with 4 dB BSC while using a proto crossover with 1.0 mH L1 LP on the woofers, but this gives a bit more bass which is always appreciated by moi!
Ahhh, stop the presses. I just fired up the 2nd speaker, and bass sounds more than a little bloated now. Going to go back to a 1.0mH coil on the woofers. Just glad I didn't order more crossover components from Meniscus this time around!
But Chahly - Stahkist don't want speakers that look good, Stahkist wants speakers that sound good!
To be honest, any more I target 4db or so anyways. Most of my listening space is closer to walls and full BSC usually involves manually EQ'ing the system. Easy enough with Audyssey or something - harder perhaps on a minimalist system such as my bar:
Optical out to the DAC, DAC to the Nobsound preamp, preamp to a pair of powered monitors (KRK Rokit 5 G3).
I can EQ using the speakers, so not too bad. If I switch to passives in the future (very likely) I will design the crossover to compensate for the location. They are corner loaded, and full BSC would yield extremely bloated bass - even with the lowest setting on these, the bass is pretty thick.
As it is, it is much more better than the shit speakers built into the little TV. I still have some work to do with gain controls, but overall it is a lot of fun streaming the Amazon Music in HD. We love our bar, and my hope is someday some of you will make the journey to Sioux Falls to hang out in my basement and have a few drams and listen to music and shoot the shit.
@rjj45 said:
ROAD TRIP!! A friend just introduced me to Monkey Shoulder scotch, but I'm certain that you have better!
Most of my Scotch is better than the Monkey Shoulder. I ended up having to mix it with Diet 7-up to make it palatable. It is a cut above Johnnie Walker Red, but really more of a mixer Scotch than something delicious with a couple ice cubes.
@PWRRYD said:
Don, how do you like the bass extension of your MLTL?
This is the second "production" MLTL I've built, and I pretty much love the TL bass. Funny thing, it doesn't measure any differently than a regular ported bass reflex, but it sounds more extended below Fb, and it sounds better controlled below Fb. So I'm a big fan. Probably do more TL builds.
But Chahly - Stahkist don't want speakers that look good, Stahkist wants speakers that sound good!
Wow, you never know. Learned a lot from this process, chiefly, never declare a crossover to be "final-final-final" until you have listened to both speakers together. Sounds a LOT better with the 1.0mH inductor, and plenty of bass.
Impedance shows a solid 4 ohm minimum.
Plus-Minus 2 dB from 40- Hz to 14Khz
But Chahly - Stahkist don't want speakers that look good, Stahkist wants speakers that sound good!
That would be interesting. Looks like eight pairs of the tw030 and a quad of the Rivals sitting on the shelf. Been busy lately on that darn preamp, fishing, and mama's honey-do list. Need to use up some of the driver stock.
Don, might I suggest a Peerless DA25TX or DA32TX? You might have to router the Rival rebates into the tweeter faceplate to get tighter C2C spacing though.
Comments
I would start with more bsc, and see what it looks like, and then get rid of the 1500 to 3000 flair.
If they are close enough to the wall, then the bass may be just fine.
I find that MTMs can have a midrange bloom that needs to be reduced at times, YMMV.
InDIYana Event Website
That was Jeff's view also. I started reworking the crossover, and dropped the tweeter level about 2 dB and dropped out of band woofer LP also. Probably leave BSC as is, detailed measurement shows 4 dB, and with both speakers playing, there is plenty of bass.
This woofers raw FRD and with the posted crossover.
OK, maybe, just maybe, I've nailed the crossover.
For some reason, I could never squash that bump at 4K and still get a decent reverse null and slightly recessed from 1.2K - 3.3K. But this sounds clear, not shouty, even at high volumes. Interested in feedback as always!
I ended up going to 2nd order on the woofers, kept 3rd order on the tweeter.
THD measurements were the same - very low and boring!
The polars came out totally different
Polars 0-50 not normalized
Polars 0-50 normalized.
Final crossover. In the past, I tried dialing in 6 dB of BSC on some designs, and felt that FR was a bit bloated. This design really does have 6 dB of BSC, and it sounds awesome. As anticipated, the Rival R176CPs are incredible, but not that impressed with the Wavecor TW030WA01 tweeter - it's a pretty bumpy, even when measured nearfield. But distortion is very low, and with very good detail.
I've found, and this might be a secret that everyone knows, that lower quality drivers generally do not sound as good using full BSC - I think it is distortion related. Quite a few 7" drivers, even midrange priced stuff, just goes to hell below 100Hz at even moderate excursion. I find targeting 4-5db helps to restore some balance on the bottom end. YMMV and as always this is just idle speculation on my part.
I was happy with 4 dB BSC while using a proto crossover with 1.0 mH L1 LP on the woofers, but this gives a bit more bass which is always appreciated by moi!
Ahhh, stop the presses. I just fired up the 2nd speaker, and bass sounds more than a little bloated now. Going to go back to a 1.0mH coil on the woofers. Just glad I didn't order more crossover components from Meniscus this time around!
To be honest, any more I target 4db or so anyways. Most of my listening space is closer to walls and full BSC usually involves manually EQ'ing the system. Easy enough with Audyssey or something - harder perhaps on a minimalist system such as my bar:
Optical out to the DAC, DAC to the Nobsound preamp, preamp to a pair of powered monitors (KRK Rokit 5 G3).
I can EQ using the speakers, so not too bad. If I switch to passives in the future (very likely) I will design the crossover to compensate for the location. They are corner loaded, and full BSC would yield extremely bloated bass - even with the lowest setting on these, the bass is pretty thick.
As it is, it is much more better than the shit speakers built into the little TV. I still have some work to do with gain controls, but overall it is a lot of fun streaming the Amazon Music in HD. We love our bar, and my hope is someday some of you will make the journey to Sioux Falls to hang out in my basement and have a few drams and listen to music and shoot the shit.
ROAD TRIP!! A friend just introduced me to Monkey Shoulder scotch, but I'm certain that you have better!
Most of my Scotch is better than the Monkey Shoulder. I ended up having to mix it with Diet 7-up to make it palatable. It is a cut above Johnnie Walker Red, but really more of a mixer Scotch than something delicious with a couple ice cubes.
You are welcome if you get to the area.
All of you are.
Don, how do you like the bass extension of your MLTL?
This is the second "production" MLTL I've built, and I pretty much love the TL bass. Funny thing, it doesn't measure any differently than a regular ported bass reflex, but it sounds more extended below Fb, and it sounds better controlled below Fb. So I'm a big fan. Probably do more TL builds.
JR- how you like the Nob pre? Is that a relay-latcher?
InDIYana Event Website
It's good enough, and yes it has relays from what I can hear.
Wow, you never know. Learned a lot from this process, chiefly, never declare a crossover to be "final-final-final" until you have listened to both speakers together. Sounds a LOT better with the 1.0mH inductor, and plenty of bass.
Impedance shows a solid 4 ohm minimum.
Plus-Minus 2 dB from 40- Hz to 14Khz
Give us a report when you've spent a good long time with them. May have to build a pair.
Great project Don!
I've got plenty more of the R176s, I might reprise this project as a folded TL "bookshelf" , but with a different tweeter.....
That would be interesting. Looks like eight pairs of the tw030 and a quad of the Rivals sitting on the shelf. Been busy lately on that darn preamp, fishing, and mama's honey-do list. Need to use up some of the driver stock.
Don, might I suggest a Peerless DA25TX or DA32TX? You might have to router the Rival rebates into the tweeter faceplate to get tighter C2C spacing though.