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Open Baffle Hybrid Design

Figured I would start a separate thread so as not to clutter Bill's "Plumbers" thread.  

I made some more progress on my hybrid open baffle design.  Let me stress again that these particle board boxes are strictly prototypes.  That's why I didn't take the time or effort to flush trim the butt joints or fabricate fancy clamps to hold in the rear mounted drivers.  Big old fender washers were good enough at this stage.  They are hybrids because only the TC9FD mid is dipole.  I have never measured an OB project, let alone designed a xo for it.  I have a feeling that the power response may be more important than the on-axis frequency response.  At any rate it will be a fun learning experience and I will have to trust my ears more.  I picked up the ND90-8's when they were on sale for $17, so I don't have a lot of money invested in this project.  Any comments and suggestions are greatly welcomed.  I'll post the measurements when I complete them.  Here's where I'm at right now (too nice of a day to spend in the basement measuring speakers):


4thtrykennykgreywardenjhollander
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Comments

  • Will these be coming to ddiy?

  • They will if I can make them sound half way decent by then.
  • That would be swell. I'd like to hear those Vifa mids. They seem to get some buzz in the diy community
  • I'm a fan of swapping the tweeter and mid for a MTW.  The dipole peak looks cleaner in sims with the mid equal distance from the edges
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  • I'm a fan of swapping the tweeter and mid for a MTW.  The dipole peak looks cleaner in sims with the mid equal distance from the edges
    Now you tell me...
    kennyk
  • Sorry.  If you remember this project 

    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/speaker-project-gallery/57802-indy-ng-2-way-open-baffle-150-pair

    The flat baffle behind the OB mid/ tweeter made the image project higher than the height of the mid/ tweeter.

    It will be interesting if your image moves higher or does the tweeter hold it level...

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  • Typo horizontal baffle behind the mid/ tweeter
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  • Based on listening with some quick thrown together xos, I've decided to procede with this hybrid OB project.  The prototypes taught me a few things and I'm going to also swap the mid and tweeter positions like John suggested.  The ND90-8 is a neat little driver but it didn't dig deep enough and has really poor sensitivity.  I'm switching to the ND105-4 in a larger box for better bass.  I also need a tweeter that can play cleanly a little lower than the ND16.  So I'm repurposing a pair of Vifa BC25SC06.
    Turn2JasonP
  • The horn loading of the Vifa should also help with the z-offset when rear mounting the TC9FD.
  • edited April 2017
    PWRRYD said:
    Based on listening with some quick thrown together xos, I've decided to procede with this hybrid OB project.  The prototypes taught me a few things and I'm going to also swap the mid and tweeter positions like John suggested.  The ND90-8 is a neat little driver but it didn't dig deep enough and has really poor sensitivity.  I'm switching to the ND105-4 in a larger box for better bass.  I also need a tweeter that can play cleanly a little lower than the ND16.  So I'm repurposing a pair of Vifa BC25SC06.
    This is what I jumped to as well, the ND105-4 in a li'l bass bin below the TC9's. I'm taking a whack at it w/o the tweeter though. While I have a rough model and parts on hand, with spring rolling in this is pretty far down the TO-DO list.

    BTW, is there a term for an M-M.5-W? Or am I destined to learn why not? :3
  • Woofer boxes are done.  Time to make some baffles now.  81 F and partly sunny here today!!!
  • I still need to machine the port holes in the baffles, but here's what I got so far:


    kennykTurn2
  • The recesses for the mids turned out pretty good considering I free handed them with a plunge router.  The recesses for the woofers weren't a big concern since they won't be seen (inside the woofer box).
    kennyk
  • These baffles are 18" tall and 5.5" wide at the bottom (3.5" wide at the top)



    Anyone know what kind of wood this is?  I seriously don't.  I found the board in my wood pile.  It's kind of light weight, almost as light as pine.  But it is harder than pine but not nearly as hard as the hardwoods like hickory or walnut that I'm familiar with.  Some sort of maple maybe?
    kennykJasonPNicholas_23
  • Craig , I'm curious , why the mid above the tweeter and how do you measure the xover in this config? Thanks
  • Craig it looks like an open grain wood, plus lighter weight could mean it's elm.  Maple would be closed grain
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  • Do you like the new layout John?
  • If I like how this version sounds then I'll explore some finishing options for this wood.  Maybe a Danish oil/shellac/poly finish.

    The first prototype had a 1/2" thick baffle and needed the fender washers to mount the mid and woofer.  This version uses a 3/4" thick baffle so I can use normal 1/2" long screws and not poke through the front.  This should result in a much cleaner look. 
  • Hi Nick.  I swapped the mid and the tweeter so that the mid was higher above the top of the woofer box.  This version just has a regular rectangular woofer box, not the sloping down top like the first version.  John H. suggested this swap.  I have heard his open baffle creations and respect his experience.
  • Craig, yes I like the baffle.  Looks like a mini tower.  Recessing the TC9 makes it look expensive  :)

    The idea of the mid at the top is to minimize the baffle such that the dipole null moves higher in the frequency range.  That allows the x-o point between the mid and the tweeter to be higher.

    Crossing the tweeter at or below the first dipole null improves the off axis response (short answer).

    You would measure at your listening axis.  I usually try to make the tweeter location the listening and measuring axis.

    I shared with Craig that when I built the Indy-NG project the mid/tweet rear response bounced off the top of the woofer box so the image was raised about 3 feet.  I changed that in the Aperivox build 
    Nicholas_23
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  • Thanks John.
  • Anything happening?
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  • Yeah, I'm doing something different again this time...  I'm sanding and applying a finish on the baffles BEFORE starting the measuring and design process.  When I save the finish step for last, well, my speakers show up at DIY events in bare MDF :astonished: 

    I should be taking measurements this weekend if the forecast is correct and it's raining.
    kennyk
  • PWRRYD said:
    Yeah, I'm doing something different again this time...  I'm sanding and applying a finish on the baffles BEFORE starting the measuring and design process.  When I save the finish step for last, well, my speakers show up at DIY events in bare MDF :astonished: 

    I should be taking measurements this weekend if the forecast is correct and it's raining.
    That is a fantabulous idea.... usually i don't have enough confidence to put in a lot of finish effort.... :s
  • I built a prototype first to give me some confidence that the driver would sound good OB.
  • Sometimes I think all my speakers are prototypes...Redoing the Udiques for MWAF
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  • I believe the board I used for the baffles is alder.  It has a nice color and grain pattern, but it is soft and didn't take stain evenly (very blotchy) on my test scraps.  The best looking test finish was clear shellac with a little paste wax for sheen.  Looks pretty good but provides no scratch or dent protection.

    I should have followed the shellac with a satin poly or lacquer.  I set the baffles face down on my workbench to mark the driver screw holes.  I thought the bench top was perfectly clean but there must have been a small something that left some indentation lines :angry:   Too late now, I'm not going back to sand those out.  You have to look up close in decent light to see them... but still it pisses me off that they are not perfect.
  • Long story short I'll never use alder again and I'll always opt for a tougher finish.  Live and learn I guess.
  • I just measured the ND105-4 drivers I've had for about 6 years or so.  They measure much better than what is currently published on PE site.  10 Hz lower Fs and Qts 0.50.  Higher Vas of course but better response in my box.  There must have been a production change somewhere between then and now.
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