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When is it truly DIY???
Just throwing this out there, so let the flames roar high, I can take it...
When does DIY "Do It Youself" go from maybe designing but definitely building something FOR yourself, morph into designing/building something hoping others will build?
I'm not saying that is Keith's intention, don't know him but he seems like a great guy. But I kind of read it that way. He was worried about a tweeter not being available to others? I tempered my PE post, but what I want to know is are people shooting for "Overnight Sensation" or "Continuum" fame with their designs? Is that a true DIY goal?
When does DIY "Do It Youself" go from maybe designing but definitely building something FOR yourself, morph into designing/building something hoping others will build?
I'm not saying that is Keith's intention, don't know him but he seems like a great guy. But I kind of read it that way. He was worried about a tweeter not being available to others? I tempered my PE post, but what I want to know is are people shooting for "Overnight Sensation" or "Continuum" fame with their designs? Is that a true DIY goal?
Comments
But I believe there's a certain amount of vanity in all of us that allows us to get a rush when someone wants details to build a design. Some feed on that rush like a wolf and I believe we know who those folks are. That's their thing, so be it.
I don't shy away from NLA and buyouts if they do what I'm looking for. IMHO, that shouldn't hem in our DIY exploits.
Did you know there are a fuckton of people who compete to see how many designs they can build from a couple of designers? It is a matter of pride to them - which is why I don't give two shits when a popular driver reaches end of life. This hobby is in serious danger of dying, and kits are largely to blame.
Just my 0.05 worth.
It would be cool if others built a design you did but my goal at this point is to design something that doesnt sound shitty.
I wanted to learn woodworking and some electronics when i got into this. Its been worth it to me at this point. I will say new designs are what keeps the hobby going. Discussing the drivers and design goals/decisions is interesting to me. Unique takes on kits are cool as well. Anything that tries ti push some boundaries or is artistic i like.
It is the primary reason I stopped posting a whole lot. Toole, Dickenson, Newell, Collums, and so on all agree that it is the sum of the complexities that count. The science leads us to better understanding of HOW to integrate all of the complexities, but ultimately it is a design. NOT and strictly engineered product.
There is no voodoo there is no magic, but there are decisions of how to approach everything.
Cookie-cutter design rules will always leads to a good result. Some people are very ok with that and will still have a hell of a speaker. Yet SO many legendary speakers exist from Quads to Micro-bookshelvs that do not adhere to the "rules" in whole, yet sound fantastic and translate the music like no others.
I am ear-deep trying to reconcile it all in this hobby. I think if it feeds someone's ego to have a 'popular design', follw the rules, make a big deal out of it, be political and win over the masses so they will affirm your design, and peddle it until it gets built by others. Far more of a political game than one for the sake of fidelity, DIY, or the spirit of it all.
Kudos to those that do take on the challenge of crossover design. It's never been a interest of mine so I admire those that do. I'm like Mike, I enjoy searching for drivers that I feel will offer better sound at an affordable price and coming up with designs that are better than the last speakers I built. But, I'm not interested in the frustration that would come with "rolling my own" which is why I depend on others that do enjoy crossover design to pardner with. Curt and I have made a good team with him doing the really hard work and me building and supporting folks that wanted to build the design but didn't have experience assembling a speaker.
I've had two end goals since I started doing this in 2001. 1st of all, for me, it was all about the music. My roots were in the high end audio community rather than DIY. I finally decided, I can do this if I sub out the parts I don't have the skills or tools for, so I jumped in. The speaker ideas/designs I've come up with were always designed for a spot in my house.
2nd, 15 years ago there were very few decent sounding designs that were published for others to build. The DIY events were just getting started and anonymous ratings were the norm which was great for the folks like me that wanted to build an excellent sounding speaker but didn't know which one would meet my goals. It soon was labeled a competition and it went down hill from there instead of being recognized as merely as a way to convey a group opinion about the best sounding speakers that were presented the day of the event for those that didn't attend.
Ease of building for new builders was something that evolved with CAD designs so the cabinets could be easily assembled. Meniscus filled in another blank spot by building crossovers for those without the skills to read a schematic or solder one together.
Of course builders enjoy hearing how good their speaker looked or sounded and folks expressing an interest in building them. That's human nature. However, its still all about the music for me. If I can't sit with a nice glass of wine listening to them without a smile on my face, I screwed up.
I'm old enough that there probably aren't that many more speakers that I'll have an interest in building. The Bordeaux push all of the right buttons for me when I listen so I suspect they'll be around as the main system for some time. The only other design I have in mind is for a "traveling" speaker that will go with my wife and I when we try to escape the nasty cold weather of Iowa in winter. She's retiring this month so our options are open.
My $0.02 worth.
Jim
Like others here, I'm in the hobby for the enjoyment, design challenges, and ultimately a nice set of speakers for myself that I can listen to while building models.
At this point in time, I really don't have many designers to look up to - primarily a lot of peers. My lack of skills selling my ideas, however, means I am not elevated. My ego does not depend on recognition from strangers, so I do not lose sleep over the fact people are not building my designs. I do, however, worry about the hobby backsliding despite the proliferation of information and tools widely available.
Setting personal comfort levels is one thing, but... pushing kit after kit with the sales pitch of "you are a newb and therefore incapable" will kill this hobby. How will a newb ever know if they can learn it if all he ever hears is that he cannot?
I have written in the past on the various levels of DIY we all take part in, ultimately I advocate DIY for the sake of DIY - but I also advocate people make an effort to learn and grow.
This is not a simple subject, not by far, but I really believe if a kit does not come with a well articulated writeup covering a wide range of concepts relative to the design, multiple measurements with a coherent interpretation, and an honest BOM - then it is effectively the equivalent of gluing up a Monogram 1/24 scale 1957 Chevy model - and claiming they built a car. There is no advancement in understanding.
That is ok - for absolute certainty that is ok. For example, I am a DIY lawn care guy and I cut my own hair and I cook and clean and record music etc. I DIY a ton of things. What I do not pretend, though, is that I am involved in innovation along any of those lines (well, except for cooking) - and that is the reason we take extremely basic ingredients like drivers and mdf and try to make something beautiful and awesomely functional.
Let me ask this: if someone asks us a question about killing weeds - do we refer them to a bottle of Ortho and then pat them on the back about their awesome adventure in DIY?
Sorry for the ramble, this is a complicated issue for me.
In response to your question: No, unless a customer specifically asked for the Ortho. My usual referral is to a short-tined grilling fork (or trowel for deep roots and large weeds) and a five gallon bucket. It's more work over the short term, but gives a (admittedly subjective) better result long term without helping weeds adapt to the chemicals in the Ortho.
I share many of your sentiments. If you look at "US". Peers as JR put it (I like that term because like the montley crew I roll with, We all don't have to agree as long as we come together in the end for the common good).....We matured in the hobby in a sort of hay-day.
When I started back in the late 90's (with audio, anyway). PE was JUST a thing on line, Audio Asylum was the main-stay for the hobby, and I had an old, beat-up copy of the LDC 4 I obsessively read over and over. There was no affordable CAD and measurement equipent was still a fortune.
I built many, very crappy speakers (still miss the mark often when 'trying new thibgs') hoping someday to build a speaker I could love because $5995.00 for a pair of ProAc Response 5's was simply not feisable for a late teen/early twenty-something.
I think there are a lot of us that share this story to one degree or another. We had high-level engineers to simplify concepts, and EVERY design was a NEW design. Even 5-6" bookshelvs. We were finding new drivers, and great value drivers, discussibg why they were such a value, why others sucked, and watched the kits come to be by early, capable designers.
It was cool.
I think either entropy, or stagnation has hit the hobby hard. Among other things like DSP, easy cad allowing design-by-line without understanding the finer details, and for newcomers it is cool and fun, but there is little sense of adventure anymore.
And on and on..... ts frustrating.
I think there is room for both approaches. What is maddening to me is that when someone new does venture in wanting to learn, a kit is the only thing theu are told to build. Or "someone" spoon feeds them a crossover with no explanation on the hows and why's of the design.
There are times I've suggested kits for people, even my own if it met their goals. I try to explain Why I am making a particular suggestion though.
It doesn't bother me at all that the rs28 is gone. It is what it is. Same as the drivers at MCM. I have a crap load of stuff yet from them and plan on buying more as well.
Why is the hobby dying? IMHO, current generation doesn't put as much priority on sound quality. It's more about cramming as much personal taste in music on their cell phones as possible. It's all about the portability of their music and can they stream it to the device they want to listen to it on. A large percentage of them don't even realize the music was compressed to the point that it affected the quality of the recording. The industry did a bang up job of hiding that fact as it made the transition. If the consumers don't know a good recording from a bad one, they damn sure aren't going to know a good speaker from a bad one. I'm afraid things are only going to get worse with the introduction of Active speakers at a consumer price point. Once the consumer can tailor the speakers to their likings with their phones, it's just one more way to cover up the piss poor quality recordings and the underlying root problem still goes untreated. Will our hobby survive all of this, maybe, I hope so. Having a hard time envisioning what's gonna bring newbies back to our hobby. If it's the idea of saving money, doubt they're gonna be in this hobby for long.
As for Passive vs Active, my opinion is there's a place for both. Why does it have to be one or the other? Both present their own challenges and you can certainly screw up either if you don't know what you're doing. For the guys who learned Passive first, Active being the next step only makes sense if you want to see how much further you can bend Murphy's law. Besides, a lot of guys plateau with Passive designs, Active could be a way to re-energize their passions, a new challenge so to speak.
Ive lost interest in the hobby mainly because i have no where to put these things anymore and im running out of friends to sell too!
As a hobby, I think you are going to see interests rise and fall overtime. I think right now you are seeing a time where people don't have a lot of time or money or they are focusing their resources elsewhere. This is an enjoyable hobby but you have to admit that it is an expensive and time consuming.
I think this is the upside to a kit or the help from a forum. Gives people the opportunity to build something or also own something for a lower cost then it would be to buy name brand. The advantage of a kit is everything is done for you and you just need limited tools. It is also something that could be rushed through a weekend or done in a couple weeks. I also feel that the community needs to be supportive. When I first started building speakers, I jumped right into a 3 way with an off the shelf crossover and landed right on my face. I thought I knew everything because I had built some subwoofer boxes and picked out some parts on PE. With the help from TT and the community, I was able to fix the crossover and open my eyes to all the things I was blind to.
The last thing, I don't think high resolution audio is dead and I think it will be making a resurgence in a few years. With 4k video and Atmos audio, I think the entertainment industry is going to be looking at ways to get more money. I think that the TV market has figured out that they can get someone to buy a new TV about every 8 to 10 years if the price range and features are between $600 - $1200. The audio industry just needs to catch up so that you can buy all the electronics for a fair price and I think Emotiva is one company that is heading in that direction. Also, look at vinyl sales, I think people want to touch and feel something and make an experience out of listening to music.
When I say DIY is dying, I think what I mean is the type of DIY that used to feature weird drivers - nobody used to care that drivers would go NLA, in fact every driver eventually goes NLA - so you saw lots of great buyout designs, or combinations of drivers from oddball vendors...
Now, it seems, people have a hard-on against drivers that may or may not go NLA. It is like everyone with a measurement mic is banking on Erich over at DIY Sound Group to offer kit support - and if there is even the remotest possibility that a kit will not be forthcoming, a lot of people seem to lose interest in designing for the hell of it.
If you ever get around to it, go check out the DIY Audio sub-reddit over at reddit.com. It is unreal how many people out there are building kits. Paul Carmody is huge in the DIY community at large, there are people who have contests to see how many of his designs they can build. We do not see that from the comfort of our small forums (and yes, PE is a tiny forum). Hats off to Paul - he is my friend and I am very proud of him.
In that sense, no - DIY as an activity will definitely not die. However, if 90% of the speakers people build are variations of the same three or four designs then DIY as a way to spread R&D and innovation over a significant number of people is dead. Dead like Jacob Marley.
I am afraid the ship has sailed for encouraging people to learn how to design, however. I shudder to think how many amazing people I would never have met in the last 8 years of going to DIY events if each of them had been convinced to build a Continuum because they were told they were not capable of designing something on their own. I know we all get frustrated when a newbie "won't listen to reason" about his or her bad design choices - but at the same time, the sheer number of bandwagon jumpers pushing existing designs is bullshit of a different, but just as aggravating nature.
There is a glimmer of hope, however. There is a possibility that the future lies in our relatively small group of designers pushing back on the kit frenzy by stepping up not only our design game, but our documentation/presentation game. If we document our designs well, explain our compromises, and present them well - people may get excited seeing it is not some magic that a handful of people possess. They will see it as a practical engineering skill that, like any other trade, takes some time to learn - and the fun is in the process. Especially critical is making damn sure newbies understand there is NO actual failure - that in point of fact, design work is an iterative process. This is something not stressed enough: telling someone they are doomed to fail is a dick move.
I guess what really grinds my gears is this: 10 years ago, people were simulating, designing, building, experimenting left and right. Every day on Madisound or PETT was somebody asking questions and getting coaching. What changed? Why?
But I was and still am building for the sake of learning, not to mention how much personal gratification comes from table sawing and routering your own shit. Designing with the goal of having a bunch of people build my design or winning a "speaker design" competition (MWAF) when you don't even have to design the whole speaker just seems odd to me.
Additionally, the rules are carefully constructed to allow someone with only partial contribution to a design to be considered a winner. I suspect, however, if I change the bass tuning a bit or try a different bass alignment of, say, one of the designs from DIY Sound Group it would probably be disallowed despite effectively being an identical effort as some past winners at MWAF.
This is exactly why I avoid MWAF, and am increasingly less interested in InDIYana.
How do we shake this hobby up? How do we get people a little closer to the source? I know some people say it can never be truly DIY since we do not manufacture our own drivers - but that is bullshit. There is a practical limit to our resources, and as I look at the pile of "go-faster" parts in the bed of my truck I am reminded that no shade-tree mechanic owns a foundry and a machine shop. Yet, there are many mechanics who will grab a dremel and port out a set of old heads - similar to how some of us have experimented with modifying drivers. Others just buy off-the-shelf ported and polished heads and go from there. Still others buy a crate engine - all DIY more or less, just varying degrees of it. In audio, though, it seems the journey towards knowledge and skill is being pre-empted by the thirst for achievement and peer recognition.
I started out el Cheapo Computer speakers (from the like or creative etc - the first ones didn't even have an amp - just connect direct to audio out), then going to a 2.1 no name brand system, then going to bit better speakers like M-Audio. It was then when trying to over beyond with a budget of 500$ or so, i stumbled upon Parts Express. The first speakers I built was Ben's PC speakers with the 3" aura, then a slightly more complex vented one (box vise) was the pico neo again with the 3" aura. Next came a two way with proper crossover the Overnight sensation. then I bought the parts (including the knockdown cabinets) for the Amiga (sad to say, I have not yet built it). The cabs were re-purposed for the spider web active speakers. And now I am totally and fully addicted going by the stash of drivers and unfinished builds I have.
I am still learning - both XO design (passive and active), cabinet making, in fact I just used veneer for the first time and there is a lot further to go. I still have to try Open Baffle, wave guides, arrays, etc.... still have to use State of the art drivers. I do like the Iron Driver and the InDIYana style competition due to the fact that there are a bunch of similar speakers and you can hear what each design sounds like. This year was my first MWAF - the variety was good, and looks like the best looking and sounding speakers make it there - so good to see the best of people's effort (though i enjoyed the hotel session more than the actual MWAF, just due to the relaxed nature).
I do like to get honest / proper feedback positive or negative, as I am not done building speakers, and I do want to try new stuff / get better for my next build. I am not almost exclusively on CNC, ask for a lot of help or get a mentor for the passive XO, ask my wife to decide on the voicing, and ape techniques and cabinet designs or ask for Box modelling help. It's feels good to stand on the shoulder of giants especially if they are willing to help - I can get to see a lot further than if i was jumping on my own.
I like the DIY gatherings and try to make to as many as I can. I don't really care about winning, as most of my speakers are unfinished raw mdf with a bird's nest of alligator wires, but hey it makes noise...! I do like active, despite the cost of amps and degradation due to cheap DAC, A/D/A conversion etc due to their flexibility and ease of use, but also acknowledge that you need a proper grounding in passive XO to understand apply to active - the concepts are the same, instead of changing out components, you change slider, but measuring and voice and everything else is the similar. And frankly blind test or not, I can't make out difference between caps / coils / tweeter types / etc. All i know if it sounds good or not and I have noticed what sound I like is not necessarily the same as others and i tend to make my designs go in that direction and favor speakers (be it at DIY or AXPONA) that have that type of sound.
So would i recommend a kit or an existing design to a new comer - Yes, as I don't know how else to help - I am at that stage where I can't help with driver selection or XO design, but I can definitely suggest kits and designs that I have heard and sounded good to me. I started with DIY in order to save cost, but what I have spend in the last 4-5 years in stockpiling drivers, xo components, wood, tools and cnc fees, would have netted me some very nice commercial speakers, so cost has fallen by the wayside. Now it's more like what next can i try and if things go south, i always look forward to the next build. So I suppose we should ask a new comer why DIY? Save cost while getting decent sound over commercial or actually learn loudspeaker design.
to give an example, I would like to have a proper tube amp (not the monoprice crap i have - though it is pretty decent). The options for me are
1. Buy a brand name tube amp - around 2000+ to sky is limit
2. Try a cheap kit from tube depot or ebay around 300-500$ and potential to electrocute myself or burn down the house
3. Ask/beg Craig to share his design and help build a tube amp - again around 500+ with potential to electrocute / burn down house
4. Learn amp design? sure I if enjoyed making the kit and didn't kill myself or burn down the house.
I guess what i am saying is kits reduce the risk while giving a flavor for the hobby, competitions gives experienced builders to look forward to something and i just like driving and attending DIY gatherings..., BUT kits gets boring after the first one or two and you thirst for something different and original, competitions bring hurt ego and reality check and trying to beat the rules - BUT I still like driving to DIY gatherings and speaker shows.
Although I had help on the arrays, the Black Widows were on my own (with a little help from my son). They aren't perfect and I'm sure a lot of you guys could build much better crossovers for them but it was a learning experience for me and I enjoyed it. That's really all I want from every build, to advance my skills a little further and learn the "do's and donts". Winning was great but it damn sure isn't the reason I attend. Like Ani, I enjoyed the get together at Javad's Hotel more then MWAF. It was more relaxed and gave an opportunity to hear just how good some of the speakers were. It also allowed more time to interact with each other, ask questions, LEARN. Why does it take a competition to pull a bunch of the guys together? You see things like annual bike rally's where thousands come together just to hang out for a weekend. A place to show off their bikes, knock down a few cold ones, cookout. Maybe a bad analogy but you get what I mean. Yea, I'm still gonna have to travel across the damn country. Seems like everyone in this hobby but me lives up North. I live in one of the biggest states in the US and we have the fewest Audiophiles per capita, what the hell's up with that. Must be something in the water up North!