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InDIYana 2019 dates are official!

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  • This is my second InDIYana event, and I enjoyed it very much.  I met a lot of nice people and had some great conversations.  The speakers all sounded excellent.  Much thanks to Ben and everyone who had a hand in organizing this event.
    jr@mackennyk
  • I am sad to have missed this one... I'll definitely have to make my way to a future event! Unfortunately they are sparse on my side of the border, I remember one DIY thing in toronto a decade or more ago, when the CSS FR125, Adire Extremis, and Jon Marsh's Modula/Natalie P designs were new 'trends' on the local diy scene... seems things have moved nicely since then!

    I hope we'll see more detailed impressions of these various designs in the coming weeks... I'm particularly interested in all the Rival designs (nice representation!) and the SB ceramic bookshelf
    jr@mackennyk
  • Peerless Corundum was in full force too! 4-5 designs had them.

    However, Xmax did not show up....
  • Wolf said:
    Peerless Corundum was in full force too! 4-5 designs had them.

    However, Xmax did not show up....
    Not surprised he didn't make it. 
    I have a signature.
  • yes I noticed that! Good to see, given the recent QC concerns here about them. I assume that their representation means those issues were more isolated than the RS28F issues. Not sure what xmax means in this context, no one took full advantage of their generous xmax?
  • BTW Glad to see another build of your Fenrir, Wolf! I am building one myself, though I've been hesitant to post about it because of the liberties I've taken with the cabinet... I may have to give it a derivative name, to avoid confusion (with full credit to you, of course)
  • Bob built those almost verbatim. I felt they sounded virtually as mine do. He did a VERY good job. Nice to know there is another still. I know of at least half a dozen were purchased.

    Xmax is a notoriously incorrect poster over on PETT. He said he was coming with 2 builds and a group of door prizes. Link has been removed from the event website since his part of the deal fell through.
  • @jr@mac Best post-DIY event recap I've ever read. Outstanding.......long, but worth the read.
    kennykjr@macJasonPGowa
    My signature goes here
  • Great read JR. To add a little something to JR’s post. When I first started going to the DIY event 2 years ago that you guys put on, there was quit a few MDF cabinets. Now I see very little of a unfinished cabinet in the house. When I joined the DIY Project Pad on Facebook the members were under 2k, now its 17.3k and growing. I hope this community can support the people that want to participate. Over 50% of the diyer’s believe these event are a competition (which is discouraging to the new guy) and really just a show and tell and place to talk to much more experienced builders that will help you with anything. 3 years ago there was nobody on Facebook telling the noob how to take measurements, what equipment to buy as far as measuring and building. Now its everywhere. I think its a great thing! So be prepared. Just my 2cents.
    jr@mackennyk
  • At the very least, the pink noise for level matching allows the comparison or contrasting against other builds, whether it is a show and tell or competition.
  • Wolf said:
    At the very least, the pink noise for level matching allows the comparison or contrasting against other builds, whether it is a show and tell or competition.
    I’m not going to make any friends mentioning this but it has to be said because it’s becoming more pervasive at Indy in particular. “Level matching” is only going to be fair if it’s used consistently across all exhibits. I noticed most systems were right around 67-69db while a select few others were closer to 80db. I don’t have to explain to anyone here what that does to the perception of listeners. We all know the “louder is better” argument.  I will say for the competition segment levels were equal. But for the show and tell portion there was some disparity. 
    PWRRYDkennykdcibel
    My signature goes here
  • hifiside said:
    Great read JR. To add a little something to JR’s post. When I first started going to the DIY event 2 years ago that you guys put on, there was quit a few MDF cabinets. Now I see very little of a unfinished cabinet in the house. When I joined the DIY Project Pad on Facebook the members were under 2k, now its 17.3k and growing. I hope this community can support the people that want to participate. Over 50% of the diyer’s believe these event are a competition (which is discouraging to the new guy) and really just a show and tell and place to talk to much more experienced builders that will help you with anything. 3 years ago there was nobody on Facebook telling the noob how to take measurements, what equipment to buy as far as measuring and building. Now its everywhere. I think its a great thing! So be prepared. Just my 2cents.

    I had to leave Javad's page - it became quite hard to follow. Facebook in general is a nice forum for very casually sharing things - but as a means of collecting and centralizing data it is a hot mess. I deleted my Facebook audio page due to the same thing, although it was on a much smaller scale than Javad's beast. 


    hifisideBrannigansLawPWRRYDkennyk
    I have a signature.
  • Bryan@MAC said:
    Wolf said:
    At the very least, the pink noise for level matching allows the comparison or contrasting against other builds, whether it is a show and tell or competition.
    I’m not going to make any friends mentioning this but it has to be said because it’s becoming more pervasive at Indy in particular. “Level matching” is only going to be fair if it’s used consistently across all exhibits. I noticed most systems were right around 67-69db while a select few others were closer to 80db. I don’t have to explain to anyone here what that does to the perception of listeners. We all know the “louder is better” argument.  I will say for the competition segment levels were equal. But for the show and tell portion there was some disparity. 
    I would add that 10db is generally perceived as twice as loud - a very significant disparity. When I cranked the dial at Iowa that year on Barbie Girl, I did so with the audience more or less giving permission. Now THAT was rocking for a 5" MTM. 
    I have a signature.
  • I'm not disagreeing with you, as I was not running the meter. Curt's were louder in my theme group, and that's no lie. I was finding that it depended whom was at the meter as to where it ended up, and it sometimes depended on if the person at the meter was the one demoing their speakers. As much as I'd like to be in 4 places, it's just not possible. I was ear-balling it a bit for certain meter-monitors, as the level was higher than it should have been.
  • edited May 2019
    It’s not easy to police the levels that’s for sure. I might be overthinking things and being a bit critical when it’s not necessary, however it appears as though there are a fair amount of new participants and we owe it to them to provide a level playing field, competition or not.

    It’s always fun to turn it up to 11 but IMO if a few are allowed to rock out, then everyone should have the option. This is rarely taken advantage of at Iowa, but what we enforce is a strict reference SPL for the house track and then freedom to push it on your own music. Again most folks don’t even bother changing the volume when their tracks play, but the option is there. 

    If I didn’t think this whole volume issue wasn’t important I certainly wouldn’t bring it up. New participants are easily influenced and we don’t want folks getting bummed out because their speakers sound shallow or bland when it’s just a perception thing because of SPL disparity. 

    Ok enough of my drivel. I think my intended point is clear - just want everyone to have a fair shot - that’s all. 
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  • We were giving hand signals to Chuck to set levels during the competition.  It would be so much easier if Chuck actually had the screen in front of him and the mic was closer to eliminate some of the meter bounce.
     John H, thanks to JP I did get that email
  • We can definitely look at options to level out the volume. With so many wires going across the floor, foot traffic swapping speakers in and out at a hurried pace, safety becomes a priority. I have a remote for the preamp, so I can try that for next year. 

    Somone also suggested that we take the SPL from 1 speaker and not the average between them. Not sure this would make any real world difference. Placing the mic closer becomes an issue in safety imo. Its only an Omnimic, but i don't really want to replace it either.

    We welcome the suggestions. I truly want a level playing field for everyone. If one entry (theme or non) was louder I apologize. When trying to use hand signals to dial in 1db, it aint easy
  • Normally we have the Soundcheck software with Ben Cooper, and the meter is at the preamp. He was not able to attend this year.
  • I don't believe an incidental +/- 1 dB between project demos is the issue.  I think blatant favoritism for certain designers is.  Example:  Jeff Bagby's Solstice in 2016.


  • I have found at our events that a third party given a remote and an SPL meter is one way to help match levels. 

    As Craig points out though, we do have occasional issue with the level matching issue following certain designers. 

    This is all fun, and should be - but it can be discouraging for people who understand how these things work to form impressions of a design. 

    Maybe Doug had it right at Iowa in 2010 where he handed the presenter the remote and said "they're your woofers".
    I have a signature.
  • Just a quick Q as I've not been to one of these events. When SPL matching, what weighting are you using? I think with any speaker, getting a good match of volume can be difficult simply due to differences in "voicing" as frequency response varies between each speaker. There will be differences in how the SPL is matched based on whether you are matching an A weighted or C weighted measurement.


    Somone also suggested that we take the SPL from 1 speaker and not the average between them. Not sure this would make any real world difference. Placing the mic closer becomes an issue in safety imo. Its only an Omnimic, but i don't really want to replace it either.
    Are we talking about a tripping hazard here? Condenser mics are generally good to 120dB before distortion sets in, it's hard to break these things just with loud noises.
    I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening.
  • Yes, a tripping hazard. 
    dcibel
  • Just want to say I had a great time at my first InDIYana.  I finally got to meet Ben, Jeff B. and others that don't always get out to the Iowa and South Dakota events.   And it's always a pleasure to see old friends, even the "curmudgeonly" JR.   :p

    A huge thank you to Ben for putting on the show and all the effort it must take.   I'm hoping the house tracks will be made available as I'd like to re-listen to those in my house.  From my venue (the front row) nearly all the speakers (mine included) sounded hot on one track so I'd like to check that out.

  • edited May 2019
    Let me start out by saying I think fair attemps were made to get the levels close to target 

    Q: Is there a potential issue of using pink noise (understanding that pink noise is a combo of the full freq range 20-20) when measured thru a true full range speaker vs others with say small(er) woofers that don't register much below 50 Hz ?  Won't this then in effect let the smaller speaker play/sound louder - at least thru its more limited range presentation, and specifically across what is the most sensitive hearing range (1500 to 5000)?  

    Not shure how best to handle this, but if anything (if my thinking is correct- which I'd not bet the farm) is it not fair to say that it impacts the true full range speakers differently than the ~more limited range speakers ???

    Maybe need to run a truncated pink noise measurement range - trying to capture the anticipated shared freq range of speakers to be presented, and let the sub range (or the first couple of octaves) fall as it may?  Or,

    dcibel- is this ~ what you are ref to re an A weighted measurement ? thx
  • tajanes said:
    Let me start out by saying I think fair attemps were made to get the levels close to target 

    Q: Is there a potential issue of using pink noise (understanding that pink noise is a combo of the full freq range 20-20) when measured thru a true full range speaker vs others with say small(er) woofers that don't register much below 50 Hz ?  Won't this then in effect let the smaller speaker play/sound louder - at least thru its more limited range presentation, and specifically across what is the most sensitive hearing range (1500 to 5000)?  

    Not shure how best to handle this, but if anything (if my thinking is correct- which I'd not bet the farm) is it not fair to say that it impacts the true full range speakers differently than the ~more limited range speakers ???

    Maybe need to run a truncated pink noise measurement range - trying to capture the anticipated shared freq range of speakers to be presented, and let the sub range (or the first couple of octaves) fall as it may?  Or,

    dcibel- is this ~ what you are ref to re an A weighted measurement ? thx
    The A-weighted is a standard SPL measurement, as you can see above, it doesn't really include any low frequency data, the SPL is an average of a weighted curve, posted above. So if you were taking measurements of SPL of a small speaker vs large speaker, using A weighted measurement you've be matching up SPL mostly in 1kHz+ range. If you did the same with a C-weighted measurement, you can see above that a lot more low frequency data is included which will affect SPL result based on low frequency extension, baffle step, etc.

    Because the SPL measurement should not be full spectrum (Z-weighted), the type of noise used isn't really that important IMO.
    I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening.
  • We generally use an RTA average measurement at InDIYana. We are not using the standard spl meter as a number generation.
    dcibel
  • Im hoping to come up with a more comprehensive approach to this. Most designs were close in sensitivity (judging solely by where the volume control needed to be). The least sensitive was Rasmus B2B winner. The little W5 woofer is notoriously low and I would estimate his design in the low 80s at best. The volume control was past the halfway point (12 o'clock) Most others in the theme portion were about the 10 position. 


  • I've been talking about this for a couple years now, but I think I have my ducks in a row. Which means, I have a plan and I'm executing on it now. I'm come out and say boldly that at Iowa 2019 I'll have an automated system that sets the preamp gain from noise measurements on-the-fly. Just take the human equation out all together, and we can all sit and listening to the amazing builds people are designing these days.
    dcibelBryan@MACkennykjhollanderkenrhodesBilletThumperTom
    = Howard Stark: "This is the key to the future. I'm limited by the technology of my time, but one day you'll figure this out."
  • Wow- that's ambitious! I hope you can pull it off....
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