Bass is pretty lean despite transfer functions showing full BSC. Guess I should have measured the woofers before designing cabinets. They sound like very underdamped sealed bass. Not unpleasant, just not as "meaty" as I was targeting. This is with 1.2ohm series resistance keep in mind.
I am curious if the bass has gotten any better for you. I used the 12" version of this woofer in a 3-way and had similar results. I ended up trying it in 3 different enclosures with different tuning, and it was very underwhelming. I ended up parting out the build and giving up on it due to the bass. Was curious if it was the driver, or something I couldn't get right. I haven't had that issue before with a bass driver.
Still lacking some "punch", but the subs take care of that. Wife and I listened for about five hours last night, neither of us reported any fatigue and she said "I like them". Mrs. JR does not pull punches, especially on my builds.
These turned out pretty nice, and I have a theory on the lean bass that I need to mull over.
@jr@mac said:
Still lacking some "punch", but the subs take care of that.
IMO: better, for listening to music anyway, to have a clean low-end (subjective listening) than pushing for that last dB @ -3dB fs (measurement). I'm beginning to focus more on the in room -6db level and extended rolloff than the peak -3dB level (leading my next project to perhaps to a sealed woofer design, and a sub IF necessary).
@jr@mac said:
Still lacking some "punch", but the subs take care of that.
IMO: better, for listening to music anyway, to have a clean low-end (subjective listening) than pushing for that last dB @ -3dB fs (measurement). I'm beginning to focus more on the in room -6db level and extended rolloff than the peak -3dB level (leading my next project to perhaps to a sealed woofer design, and a sub IF necessary).
Don't let Grumpy hear you say that! He needs every design to have a strong 40 Hz lol
IMO: better, for listening to music anyway, to have a clean low-end (subjective listening) than pushing for that last dB @ -3dB fs (measurement). I'm beginning to focus more on the in room -6db level and extended rolloff than the peak -3dB level (leading my next project to perhaps to a sealed woofer design, and a sub IF necessary).
I've found smaller cabs or drivers really benefit from a small 100-150Hz peak, an F3 of 60, and an F10 in the low 40s as it loads typical living rooms better and the speaker sounds more full.
I do feel however that I kinda expect more from 8" or larger.
@Wolf said:
I've found smaller cabs or drivers really benefit from a small 100-150Hz peak, an F3 of 60, and an F10 in the low 40s as it loads typical living rooms better and the speaker sounds more full.
That's how you fake bass with a small speaker. That range of frequencies is where the low order harmonics fall from fundamentals that are in the 30-80Hz range.
And, not dissimilar to a set of stereo speakers creating a center image, when done right can be ‘magically’ satisfying.
I still remember being awed (at an Iowa or Indy ? get together years ago) by a pair of (di)minutive 7 modified RatShack speakers that not only sounded nice, but also impressively ‘played low’. Was that Ron's creation?
@Tom_S said:
I think those were Ed's - with the subwoofer, right?
I think you are correct. It was IowaDIY 2018, the speakers were called YAMR (Yet Another Minimus Remake). Ed set them up with a single subwoofer, crossed at 70Hz. Pictures of it are on the MAC archive for 2018.
Think I am also battling what mentioned in you're writeup about getting more thud from the woofer. Though I'm using dayton 8" alum PR with pricey Seas titan 7 (at least was 33% off during holidays) and wondering if better to trade in lowest reach to get more a mid 40's bump. Attaching pics of vitiux enclosure models to show what I mean. Of course. think I'll just try it but wondering if experience chimes in.
IMO a boosted upper bass can give that kick from the bass drum, but if the hump is south of 60hz it can get an obnoxious drone quality. Though I'm painting with a wide brush and I suppose I could be proven wrong in the right circumstance. The nice thing is it is easy to add and subtract mass to a PR to taste so you can try both (and anywhere in between) all you want. Then, once you make your decision, add some adhesive to lock it in place for the long term.
If VituixCAD is like WinISD then Qa should be adjusted for lining or stuffing. Not sure if it is the same across software, but in WinISD Qa=50 is normal lining of a vented cabinet and 10 is stuffing a sealed cabinet.
I think in your case, assuming you have lined the cabinet, adjusting Qa would show the 2nd graph drops even further below 100Hz or so and in the 2nd graph your peak wouldn't be as high. Note your "boost" looks like 1 to 2 db, and with the cabinet lined may be 0 to 1 db, which isn't much "boost".
After living with these for almost a year as my main system, the bass has opened up a little bit but still sounds somewhat lean. It digs deep enough, just not with authority. It is good enough for me, when I want a little more meat on the bottom end I fire up the subs.
Comments
Can you show us some off axis measurements of this dome that necessitated the on-axis dip in the final design?
I luv the write-up, JR - quite educational - thanks for sharing it!
Ever have one of those "oh shit" moments when you realize you did not save something? Yeah...
I am curious if the bass has gotten any better for you. I used the 12" version of this woofer in a 3-way and had similar results. I ended up trying it in 3 different enclosures with different tuning, and it was very underwhelming. I ended up parting out the build and giving up on it due to the bass. Was curious if it was the driver, or something I couldn't get right. I haven't had that issue before with a bass driver.
I plan on tinkering with tuning this weekend.
Still lacking some "punch", but the subs take care of that. Wife and I listened for about five hours last night, neither of us reported any fatigue and she said "I like them". Mrs. JR does not pull punches, especially on my builds.
These turned out pretty nice, and I have a theory on the lean bass that I need to mull over.
IMO: better, for listening to music anyway, to have a clean low-end (subjective listening) than pushing for that last dB @ -3dB fs (measurement). I'm beginning to focus more on the in room -6db level and extended rolloff than the peak -3dB level (leading my next project to perhaps to a sealed woofer design, and a sub IF necessary).
Don't let Grumpy hear you say that! He needs every design to have a strong 40 Hz lol
I've found smaller cabs or drivers really benefit from a small 100-150Hz peak, an F3 of 60, and an F10 in the low 40s as it loads typical living rooms better and the speaker sounds more full.
I do feel however that I kinda expect more from 8" or larger.
InDIYana Event Website
That's how you fake bass with a small speaker. That range of frequencies is where the low order harmonics fall from fundamentals that are in the 30-80Hz range.
If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to here it, does it make a sound?
If our ears and brain process something as bass, is it real or fake bass?
It's fake bass, but that is fine all the same!
(...to answer that rhetorical question, yes.)
And, not dissimilar to a set of stereo speakers creating a center image, when done right can be ‘magically’ satisfying.
I still remember being awed (at an Iowa or Indy ? get together years ago) by a pair of (di)minutive 7 modified RatShack speakers that not only sounded nice, but also impressively ‘played low’. Was that Ron's creation?
It wasn't this Ron.
I think those were Ed's - with the subwoofer, right?
I think you are correct. It was IowaDIY 2018, the speakers were called YAMR (Yet Another Minimus Remake). Ed set them up with a single subwoofer, crossed at 70Hz. Pictures of it are on the MAC archive for 2018.
Raised the tuning tonight, it fattened up on the bottom end a bit but not likely to win any awards for best in show bass.
Overall I am pretty pleased with how they turned out, even if they are a low value proposition.
Just an additional design pic, transfer functions.
Acoustic slopes are more or less 3rd BW.
Dam that's some hammer on the mid
Yessir.
Still a little too lean for my taste.
If someone brings a subwoofer to Iowa, I will bring these.
21 or 18”? 😝
https://www.jfcomponents.com/
Hehehe
Think I am also battling what mentioned in you're writeup about getting more thud from the woofer. Though I'm using dayton 8" alum PR with pricey Seas titan 7 (at least was 33% off during holidays) and wondering if better to trade in lowest reach to get more a mid 40's bump. Attaching pics of vitiux enclosure models to show what I mean. Of course. think I'll just try it but wondering if experience chimes in.
IMO a boosted upper bass can give that kick from the bass drum, but if the hump is south of 60hz it can get an obnoxious drone quality. Though I'm painting with a wide brush and I suppose I could be proven wrong in the right circumstance. The nice thing is it is easy to add and subtract mass to a PR to taste so you can try both (and anywhere in between) all you want. Then, once you make your decision, add some adhesive to lock it in place for the long term.
If VituixCAD is like WinISD then Qa should be adjusted for lining or stuffing. Not sure if it is the same across software, but in WinISD Qa=50 is normal lining of a vented cabinet and 10 is stuffing a sealed cabinet.
I think in your case, assuming you have lined the cabinet, adjusting Qa would show the 2nd graph drops even further below 100Hz or so and in the 2nd graph your peak wouldn't be as high. Note your "boost" looks like 1 to 2 db, and with the cabinet lined may be 0 to 1 db, which isn't much "boost".
After living with these for almost a year as my main system, the bass has opened up a little bit but still sounds somewhat lean. It digs deep enough, just not with authority. It is good enough for me, when I want a little more meat on the bottom end I fire up the subs.