Well, small turnout - but I think this type of thing is really my bag. We paced nice and slow, had a lot of real solid discussion, did some measurements (I think Tom picked up some ARTA pointers), and just enjoyed a relaxed day.
Tom, Brad, Nick, Chris, Shane, Bill, Matt, Ani, Mrs. JR, Mrs. Nick, and myself were in attendance throughout the day - the missuses were not there for the whole thing, however.
There were a few interesting raw drivers present - a Lab 15, a low profile XBL 12", and the Rival 8" aluminum were all on display for ogling. We were trying to measure the Lab15 with no success - we suspected the massive coil, very low Fs and low compliance were to "blame". A FB message to Jerry confirmed our suspicions, so no small signal data from the big boy.
This is the first event I have been to since the unofficial inaugural DakotaDIY held in my living room in 2013 (consisting of a ton of food and the gracious company of Nick, his Missus, Lowell, Mrs. JR, and the kids) where my ears are not at all toasted, and I have actually spent a little time with the headphones enjoying some music as I type this. Generally, between the people, the fast pace, and sheer amount of repetition on the music I am done by 3 or 4 PM and want nothing more than sensory deprivation - I am not unlike a kid in that aspect. This was a welcome outcome, to be honest.
I really enjoyed the in-between speaker sessions - we had plenty of time to discuss builds, design approaches, and even dissected Matt's tower speakers a bit. He does everything by ear - and these are remarkably close to maximizing the drivers used. The woofer roll-off is nuts on, and we came up with a couple quick things for improvement on the tweeter network and suppressing a resonance due to the pipe-like enclosure. In all honestly, I doubt I would be able to get as close as he did with just my ears. This is not to single out Matt's speaker - quite the opposite, in fact. I described this vignette as representative of the entire day. It was just a lot of fun having the time to really dig into each design.
My favorite part of the day was the Vermillions made a comeback - and Ani brought a design using nearly identical drivers (Vermillions used 8 ohm woofer, Ani used the 4 ohm). While I think the Vermillions still hold the edge - my objectivity is definitely in question
Even the designs that had an issue or two did not jump out in any kind of striking manner - on Matt's speaker for example, it took a particular passage in an Alison Krause song for me to personally pick up on it. This is what I'm talking about - I don't think we will ever have the opportunity again to listen to a truly "bad" speaker at these things. I know it sounds like I am tearing Matt's towers down - so I reiterate that it was not at all a glaring issue during playback. Quite frankly, I think most people would be content with this speaker as-is, including myself. So Matt - if you are reading this, once again I congratulate you on your ability to get it thiiiiiis close with nothing more than your ears and willingness to put in the time.
In a discussion over lunch today I posited that the future of this hobby belongs to people with the build/fit/finish skills such as Brad possesses. The actual crossover stuff is just getting to a level where average is better than great was a decade ago - I look forward to seeing how DIY approaches the fit/finish challenge compared to the high end commercial stuff. It is hard to put into words at this time, but I really believe cabinet fit/finish is where the next paradigm in DIY audio lies.
I know this gets tossed around from time to time, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to determine differences significant enough between speakers in a ten minute demo. I have spent the afternoon contemplating on what that means for competitive type scenarios in the future. I remain unconvinced that a short demo contains enough information to process properly, and as the gap between the top and bottom designs continually shrinks - the validity of competitive results is called further into question. At some point, I believe the community will need to face this and engage it head-on. The rest of my opinions on competitions are already a matter of public record.
Guys - I had a great weekend. Thank you Tom for the Crown and Mt. Dew power, Bill and Tom both for the photography, and the rest of you for your good humor and for being such a great group. Mrs. JR commented to me how relaxed and down to earth everyone seemed this year. We had room for at least three or four more guys of course, and obviously I missed so many of you - but all in all, this was a very positive experience for me. I really needed this after the last 12 months or so, and it reminded me why I love this hobby in the first place.
I'm sorry I missed the party. It sounds like you had fun. I blew the travel budget on the Iron Driver contest in Michigan and I'm just getting over a sinus infection I picked up on the trip. Hope to see you all in Iowa this fall.
I'd like to start by thanking JR and Mrs. JR for their effort in making Dakota DIY happen. It was great seeing everyone again.
A few quick thoughts before I turn in for the night.
I found the laid back format a refreshing change of pace from the more typical DIY show. Not being mentally drained from listening to 35+ designs being sent through on an assembly line was a definite plus and allowed for playing tourist after the main event wrapped up.
The measurement sessions on the breaks were instructive, regardless of whose speakers or drivers were under test.
Ani, it has been an honor to be present these past few years as your design skills have grown. In the comparison between your two ways and the Vermillions, as much as I like the Vermillions, I don't know that I could have reliably differentiated between the two designs had the comparison been done blind. That is a two way to be proud of.
I had a great time! Thanks to JR and his wife for hosting - and that pizza was amazing. I'll echo JR and Matt's comments on the relaxed pacing. We got through all the speakers (13 pairs?) before 5pm with lots of time to gawk and gab and even do a little testing. It was great to see some familiar faces again and meet some new people too.
It was good to take those periodic breaks and have no music playing. I actually had time during the day to meet the people I didn't know and learn about some of the deigns. I really didn't have any ear fatigue at the end of the day, but I did leave the room during that final torture test of the Rival/SEAS design! So many good sounding and good looking speakers! Matt's towers really surprised me. Knowing that it was all done by ear, not measuring the drivers or using any design software - that just blows me away. I have heard that little tweeter used poorly in many commercial designs. But he really did a commendable job. The speakers I wish I could take home with me - Nick's Usher 8" 2-way that JR designed. They might not have been everyone's favorite, but they just checked all the boxes on my list. You have effectively lit a fire under my butt to use the pair of 8" Ushers sitting on my shelf.
Thanks everybody - I had a great time and if it happens again next year, just like Arnold says - I'll be back!
It was a lot of fun, with a little auto and car discussion thorwn in during lunch, with those cars sitting outside. On a request, JR brought around his classic truck to oogle at and popped the hood for all the shiny goodness inside.
It was a blast and it was really hard to pick favorites. If I had to pick a few I really enjoyed both of Tom's 2 ways and Brad's towers won me over. The Peerless drivers sounded very nice in the room.
Thanks for hosting JR. I really liked those peerless drivers in both designs. From where I was sitting , I also liked Toms' dynavox two way. Great event , good peoples and great speakers.
I'm usually done on friday with the sheer amount of builds going up! I like the small gatherings alot. I can learn more and actually not roach my ears for a week lol.
Thanks for hosting Mr. and Mrs. JR. I would say I enjoyed Bill’s build the most he took Pine wood which lots of people say (you CAN’T use pine for building enclosures!!!). The Dayton neo 5.25 he used dug deep when they were asked too. The top end drivers I don’t know much about so they intrigued me to look into some of those types.
I agree with JR when he said that it’s hard to find a bad set of sounding speakers anymore at these events. Shit I think it’s hard to tell the expensive drivers from the cheap drivers anymore, cuz everyone does there homework when modeling and tuning. As we talked at lunch I mentioned to jr. that would like to make a video series of the way I do my enclosures. They would include Everything from start to finish, so there would be a few videos. I was wondering if they could be placed somewhere on this forum that they could be referenced to anytime someone needed to and not get lost in a tread somewhere.
I always have fun at DIY events. Hope to see everyone in Iowa.
Ani - my wife just saw some pictures of your speakers and said they were gorgeous. I wholeheartedly agree! I had to tell her I'm not sure if I can pull off a building a cabinet that even remotely resembles your translams.
Ani - my wife just saw some pictures of your speakers and said they were gorgeous. I wholeheartedly agree! I had to tell her I'm not sure if I can pull off a building a cabinet that even remotely resembles your translams.
Thanks, Tom. It took a few tries and a lot of sanding, but I am glad it turned the way it did... I did get a lot of help from getting it CNC from Mike to a lot of finishing tips. This is the first time I tried water based varnish. No smell, and much easier to use.
Thanks! I'm the odd-ball...not shooting with a Canon, Nikon, or Sony. It's a Fuji X-T2. It's really a great camera for video - that's my day job and mainly why I bought it. The 4K footage is very good. Great jpeg conversion too. Now Bill has a serious still camera - a full-frame Nikon D800! If I didn't shoot video, I would probably go back to Nikon.
Wow, Ani! Your Penguins came out great!! What did you fill the grain with to get the contrast on the baffles? At least the looks befits their sonic attributes, as they did sound very good at InDIYana as well.
Thanks! I'm the odd-ball...not shooting with a Canon, Nikon, or Sony. It's a Fuji X-T2. It's really a great camera for video - that's my day job and mainly why I bought it. The 4K footage is very good. Great jpeg conversion too. Now Bill has a serious still camera - a full-frame Nikon D800! If I didn't shoot video, I would probably go back to Nikon.
I can appreciate the odd ball comment . I didnt know that Fuji was still in the camera business , I guess in the DSLR world all you hear about is Nikon ,Canon , Sony ,Olympus and such. Having owned a Nikon D60 and D5000, is mirrorless the way to go? P.S. cant afford the heavy hitter that Bill brought.
From what I have read, Fuji got back into the semi-pro still camera game in 2012 with the X-mount. It does look like mirrorless will be the future for most cameras. You just don't need the mirror any more.
But I have always said the camera doesn't matter nearly as much as the photographer. Others will tell you to pick your lenses first, then the camera body. Heck, my favorite lenses for video are some cheap vintage Canon FD primes. So maybe I need to grab an old AE-1 and shoot film again!
Wow, Ani! Your Penguins came out great!! What did you fill the grain with to get the contrast on the baffles? At least the looks befits their sonic attributes, as they did sound very good at InDIYana as well.
This is natural in color, but add in a few drops of transtint black and rub/scrape it thoroughly over open pore grain wood like red oak - let dry, sand, dye with Red transtint and then finish everything with water based varnish.
Those look fantastic Ani. Killer finish work. How did you apply the transtint and what did you mix it with. Do you put it on the topcoat? I wanted to try it but its like $20 for a tiny ass bottle.
Transtint can be added to topcoat. I have earlier used it with Zinser Dewaxed shellac. this time, I used mixed it with water - you really need just a few drops of transtint. Apply a few coats to the oak - sanding in between with 320 grit - this also removes the raised grains and makes it really smooth. I suppose it would work well directly with the topcoat - i am planning to try it with the next baffle - will cut down on the finishing steps.
One warning - so not apply on veneer - especially mixed with water - shellac / top coat with transtint is fine, jut not water - makes the veneer really wet and it wants to wrap, and then it cracks on drying.... (only spoilt a few test pieces). For a big fat oak baffle, a little water is not an issue....
Nice set of pics from JR and Tom. Thanks to Mr. & Mrs. JR for hosting. Learned a lot about speaker design from all the discussions and measurements. Thanks again for the Pizza and Mountain Dew! Had a great time. Hope I am not overlapping too much, but here are a few more pics from my collection:
Comments
Tom, Brad, Nick, Chris, Shane, Bill, Matt, Ani, Mrs. JR, Mrs. Nick, and myself were in attendance throughout the day - the missuses were not there for the whole thing, however.
There were a few interesting raw drivers present - a Lab 15, a low profile XBL 12", and the Rival 8" aluminum were all on display for ogling. We were trying to measure the Lab15 with no success - we suspected the massive coil, very low Fs and low compliance were to "blame". A FB message to Jerry confirmed our suspicions, so no small signal data from the big boy.
This is the first event I have been to since the unofficial inaugural DakotaDIY held in my living room in 2013 (consisting of a ton of food and the gracious company of Nick, his Missus, Lowell, Mrs. JR, and the kids) where my ears are not at all toasted, and I have actually spent a little time with the headphones enjoying some music as I type this. Generally, between the people, the fast pace, and sheer amount of repetition on the music I am done by 3 or 4 PM and want nothing more than sensory deprivation - I am not unlike a kid in that aspect. This was a welcome outcome, to be honest.
I really enjoyed the in-between speaker sessions - we had plenty of time to discuss builds, design approaches, and even dissected Matt's tower speakers a bit. He does everything by ear - and these are remarkably close to maximizing the drivers used. The woofer roll-off is nuts on, and we came up with a couple quick things for improvement on the tweeter network and suppressing a resonance due to the pipe-like enclosure. In all honestly, I doubt I would be able to get as close as he did with just my ears. This is not to single out Matt's speaker - quite the opposite, in fact. I described this vignette as representative of the entire day. It was just a lot of fun having the time to really dig into each design.
My favorite part of the day was the Vermillions made a comeback - and Ani brought a design using nearly identical drivers (Vermillions used 8 ohm woofer, Ani used the 4 ohm). While I think the Vermillions still hold the edge - my objectivity is definitely in question
Even the designs that had an issue or two did not jump out in any kind of striking manner - on Matt's speaker for example, it took a particular passage in an Alison Krause song for me to personally pick up on it. This is what I'm talking about - I don't think we will ever have the opportunity again to listen to a truly "bad" speaker at these things. I know it sounds like I am tearing Matt's towers down - so I reiterate that it was not at all a glaring issue during playback. Quite frankly, I think most people would be content with this speaker as-is, including myself. So Matt - if you are reading this, once again I congratulate you on your ability to get it thiiiiiis close with nothing more than your ears and willingness to put in the time.
In a discussion over lunch today I posited that the future of this hobby belongs to people with the build/fit/finish skills such as Brad possesses. The actual crossover stuff is just getting to a level where average is better than great was a decade ago - I look forward to seeing how DIY approaches the fit/finish challenge compared to the high end commercial stuff. It is hard to put into words at this time, but I really believe cabinet fit/finish is where the next paradigm in DIY audio lies.
I know this gets tossed around from time to time, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to determine differences significant enough between speakers in a ten minute demo. I have spent the afternoon contemplating on what that means for competitive type scenarios in the future. I remain unconvinced that a short demo contains enough information to process properly, and as the gap between the top and bottom designs continually shrinks - the validity of competitive results is called further into question. At some point, I believe the community will need to face this and engage it head-on. The rest of my opinions on competitions are already a matter of public record.
Guys - I had a great weekend. Thank you Tom for the Crown and Mt. Dew power, Bill and Tom both for the photography, and the rest of you for your good humor and for being such a great group. Mrs. JR commented to me how relaxed and down to earth everyone seemed this year. We had room for at least three or four more guys of course, and obviously I missed so many of you - but all in all, this was a very positive experience for me. I really needed this after the last 12 months or so, and it reminded me why I love this hobby in the first place.
It was good to take those periodic breaks and have no music playing. I actually had time during the day to meet the people I didn't know and learn about some of the deigns. I really didn't have any ear fatigue at the end of the day, but I did leave the room during that final torture test of the Rival/SEAS design! So many good sounding and good looking speakers! Matt's towers really surprised me. Knowing that it was all done by ear, not measuring the drivers or using any design software - that just blows me away. I have heard that little tweeter used poorly in many commercial designs. But he really did a commendable job. The speakers I wish I could take home with me - Nick's Usher 8" 2-way that JR designed. They might not have been everyone's favorite, but they just checked all the boxes on my list. You have effectively lit a fire under my butt to use the pair of 8" Ushers sitting on my shelf.
Thanks everybody - I had a great time and if it happens again next year, just like Arnold says - I'll be back!
Oh and there were speakers too....
I agree with JR when he said that it’s hard to find a bad set of sounding speakers anymore at these events. Shit I think it’s hard to tell the expensive drivers from the cheap drivers anymore, cuz everyone does there homework when modeling and tuning. As we talked at lunch I mentioned to jr. that would like to make a video series of the way I do my enclosures. They would include Everything from start to finish, so there would be a few videos. I was wondering if they could be placed somewhere on this forum that they could be referenced to anytime someone needed to and not get lost in a tread somewhere.
I always have fun at DIY events. Hope to see everyone in Iowa.
I had to tell her I'm not sure if I can pull off a building a cabinet that even remotely resembles your translams.
Wow, Ani! Your Penguins came out great!! What did you fill the grain with to get the contrast on the baffles? At least the looks befits their sonic attributes, as they did sound very good at InDIYana as well.
Any more info on the Rival/DXT 2-ways?
InDIYana Event Website
Wolfy's Photobucket
But I have always said the camera doesn't matter nearly as much as the photographer. Others will tell you to pick your lenses first, then the camera body. Heck, my favorite lenses for video are some cheap vintage Canon FD primes. So maybe I need to grab an old AE-1 and shoot film again!
This is the grain filler: https://www.woodcraft.com/products/behlen-water-based-grain-filler-neutral-quart
This is natural in color, but add in a few drops of transtint black and rub/scrape it thoroughly over open pore grain wood like red oak - let dry, sand, dye with Red transtint and then finish everything with water based varnish.
This is the varnish: https://www.woodcraft.com/products/rockhard-waterborne-brushing-lacquer-semi-gloss-quart
One warning - so not apply on veneer - especially mixed with water - shellac / top coat with transtint is fine, jut not water - makes the veneer really wet and it wants to wrap, and then it cracks on drying.... (only spoilt a few test pieces). For a big fat oak baffle, a little water is not an issue....
I liked the other Skrillex/Korn hit more; Narcissistic Cannibals.
Glad you used Nightwish!
InDIYana Event Website
Wolfy's Photobucket
Nice set of pics from JR and Tom. Thanks to Mr. & Mrs. JR for hosting. Learned a lot about speaker design from all the discussions and measurements. Thanks again for the Pizza and Mountain Dew! Had a great time. Hope I am not overlapping too much, but here are a few more pics from my collection: