I agree. Jeff's Revolution mistakes, Ani's SB12CAC build, both of Craig's with the SB15CAC, the orange Micro-C kit, the Revel F208 ceramic version, etc....
These things are so detailed and sound so good, and blend well with the ceramidomes.
@kenrhodes said:
That cac driver is a gem. Every time I've heard one of the cac drivers I've been really impressed.
I totally agree 😜
They are more pricey than "OK" drivers like the Dayton reference drivers but not crazy expensive like Ellipticor, Illuminator, Purifi, Textreme, or Revelator expensive.
These drivers were 120mm and 123mm, not 125mm. Since you asked though, yes, I've used the marvelous RS125-4 in the Stances. However, the xover to make it behave was more substantial.
I know this is likely NOT the proper way to do this, but I took the gated system FR and the nearfield PR response at the same output, and then summed them in PCD. The reason this sort of works is the dips in the System response will sum with the peaks in the PR response and show an average. Again- this is likely incorrect to a degree. The 180Hz dip is floor bounce as usual. The PR response and the system response likely will not sum to above the system response, so the bass range here is exaggerated.
UPDATED: I just could not leave well enough alone apparently. Something didn't sound like I wanted it after the initial excitement subsided. Normally, I don't take this long to get it right. All I did was tweak a couple resistor values because they seemed a hair chesty and almost dull. I don't know that many would have noticed the change to be honest, but it makes them seem more sensitive and a bit more open sounding. I have uploaded the graphics pertaining to this adjusted version. I bet I added 3-4dB to the tweeter range. Sara Bareilles still isn't grating on the ears, so it must be okay.
Johnny5jz; I guess this above partially answers your question. Off axis isn't as bad as one would believe. It is a sensitive and finicky booger, and tweaking minute values shows up in the sonic qualities. I find it also is a pretty clinical/analytical and clean sounding device. It will reveal flaws in components and source content. So much so, it is easy to make it too dull to compensate for the blemishes. Depending on whether it fatigues me from here on out, I might even add an ohm back in on the switch for ease of listening. That won't do much but maybe help the HD signature a smidge. This is because I removed 3 ohms on the main resistor and 2 on the 'trough-compensation' LCR. I'll give it a week and see what I think....
Also- the 200Hz+ area may very well be 1st chamber cabinet resonances. Now that I have spent some time with them I feel this is the case. A roll/wad of Ultratouch in there should fix that issue.
Yep, the weird thing I've been fighting was a box coloration. While I was in attacking the tweeter switchboard, I shoved a roll of wool batting in behind the tweeter. They immediately sounded better. No more peaking in the lower mids.
Why I went in there you ask? I wanted to change the switch padding. The added 1 ohm resistor was previously making the tweeters too subdued. This meant if anything i needed less added resistance. I placed a single 1 ohm resistor across both of the previous (in series) 1 ohm resistors. This allows the added adjustment to 0, 0.5,or 0.66 ohms. While I was in there, I also added a Russian Teflon 0.1uF across the 10uF Zen Cap, just for the heck of it.
I'm now rounding 3rd base, and I see home up ahead. I already think these are the best 4" 2ways I've built. They have the clarity I wanted, the bass I desire from smaller builds, and the capabilities of a much larger speaker.
More to come as I finalize the preferred resistance....
Interesting, curious to see how these sound now since imagine vaporizing the quirks made it all come together and smile. At Indy something in the mid with that other woofer was not sitting right to me, like the tweet was riding alone even though the woofer was saying it was, levels wise.
And yeah, after an earlier 3 way shoddy tower trial with the wo24-sb12-sb29neo was like oh yeah, this is the mid woofer to use after trying handful of mid options. Though of course now remaking as nicer big standmount cabs and switch to the ceramidome viva vi V (loudspk on ebay) - but take my time on those and not use for sdc24. Likely enter some other combo using the dual epic7 bass bin for a 3 way.
Hoping the ceramidome's clarity appeals to me as much as seas titan 27tac (been enjoying those)
Yeah, that was how I felt about the Kartesians too. Mids were off, but i bet at least some of that was the cavity resonance.
I really like the Titans too, used them twice now.
They are considerably different in character, but i like the ceramidomes too. Still trying too see if I want added resistance or not. Without, it seems the the topend is a bit forced, but it feels like it won't take much more to get there. Even at a half ohm, it still feels maybe a touch dull.
Let me start off by saying I'm a bit miffed at myself right now. Normally, I balance all of the xover parts I'm using by measurement to make sure error between them is not that much different. I usually have all of my parts marked with value measured by the same meter to verify. I investigated the 12 ohm resistors after I was having issues finding the match and level I preferred. I remembered that I just grabbed 2 of those at marked value from the box. I knew I checked the other ones.
One measured 12.4 ohms, and the other 11.8 ohms! No wonder they were not falling into line....
I found another 11.8 ohm resistor by measuring values from the box, and then added a 0.22 ohm resistor to each to match them to 12.03 ohms measured. It is very apparent that the speakers match now. They sound and measure the same!!
The earlier less padded channel measured back on 5-13-24, reposted here for visual:
The 500-3kHz range is clearly lower output compared to the rest as measured today.
And now, with true to schematic values from 5-13-24:
Now I know I can likely figure out which added padding I prefer. I was thinking prior that 1 ohm was too much, 0.5 ohms was too much, and waffling over 0.33 ohm or nill. This was likely because one sounded right in one setting, and the other sounded right in the other setting.
Please learn from my slight self-angst here, boys and girls, and measure your electrical xover parts for use!
While I can’t hear with my eyes, I’d be leaning to the middle chart > slight downward sloping out through 10kHz followed by a slight rise (‘course my ears are a bit older…). The third chart shows bump up +/- 3kHz, region I generally prefer a slight dip to neutral.
And yes, Xover parts need to be measured (often a combo of two resistors can best get you to the targeted resistance, and help with power rating as well).
Cool build, thx for all the measurements.
Actually, I don’t think I’ve ever been able to get two separate measurements set-up exactly right to get results that close. So what little difference is probably just a tad difference in set-up.
Just as a setup of the process, these were both in the same location in my room, with same session of Omnimic open, at same volume level on same channel and amplifier, with Omnimic source disc in same player, and mic'd at the same distance and axis.
I know also that the xover parts are closely matched, the cabinets are built the same way with same masses and tunings. What will show as different at all will likely be driver inherent differences.
The only thing you didn't mention, but I'm quite sure you did do it, is make sure the 2nd cabinet is placed exactly the same as the 1st cabinet. It is the only thing that is physically changed. If I want to make sure I'm being that precise, I'd probably outline the bottom of the cabinet on my stand in painters tape.
BTW- after the left and right matched, I added the 0.5 ohm resistance back in today. This is right where it's at now. The warmth is good, the treble is not overly subdued and still gives good detail and clarity without being bright, spitty, or harsh. I still say the bass is quite well extended. It may not hit a 25Hz fundamental, but 30-35Hz still comes through with at least some apparent authority. Bass guitar and cello have the proper weight without being bloated. Toms have the proper weight and impact.
This also should be said- I don't know that either the with or without 0.5 ohm resistor is right or wrong. It is really good in either position, or anywhere in between. What is interesting, is that the one that was padded to 12.4 was just shy of the 12.5 ohms (series resistance) currently. The 11.8 needed the 0.5 and a bit more still to be at the current setting. None of them were wrong, just needed to MATCH. Some people prefer brighter speakers than I do. I feel they should be detailed and realistic, but not harsh or fatiguing.
Finally, I think I have them done! Thanks for all that followed along through the difficulties. This was not a build that was easily done, but checks a box or 2 on the ol' 'bucket build' list.
I asked Javad about how I could train my ears to be able to do what you guys do. I remember what he said but I have not started the process yet. It is difficult for me. There are so many different materials and methods in which to use them. I guess I'm just a hands on kind of guy. Maybe when arthritis kicks in, I'll train my ears.
Honestly, familiarity with the music has to be a thing. You have to know the pieces inside and out, own a version of it, and know how it sounds in more than one instance like, say, on other speakers. If you have a reference pair, and a reference song, you can learn their qualities and translate it to another pair. After that, it's tastes and preferences, experiencing what some drivers can or can't do to know their qualities, and knowing the do's and don'ts of loudspeaker circuits and accepted practices. Then knowing what something does to the frequency response is key, as well as the black art of blending drivers. Treat them holistically, and see what they want to do in the simulation. This is better than the hammer method, but it can also work in some circumstances.
For me, I was around music growing up. Mom and dad always had it on. I remember when they bought the receiver, cassette deck, and turntable. I remember when dad blew the woofers in the speakers. I went to concerts when they could afford it, orchestra, soft rock, and country mostly. WOWO was played a lot.
There were performances in church with instruments as well, organ, Tuba, trumpet, strings, and guitar.
I played an instrument in school. The tonality of a trumpet and other band instruments is still ingrained in me.
There are tracks I've come to know very well from the various events I've attended. And then translated them.
I have had help, and a lot of it too since I started back in 1998. These selfless individuals all gave me pieces of information to hold onto, culminating in what you see here before you.
Then there is learning what you do and don't like. A lot of that is empirical and found by trial and error.
Unfortunately, just like in other things, the homework is still required reading. Before I had software, I read a lot about the processes, the textbook formulae, and the previous stated best practices. I still use some of the formulas when using the speed of sound or finding values for approximated filters. I did my book/internet homework before ever touching a microphone measurement system, because I was poor, in college, and couldn't afford it. It gave me the basics to where I was ready when Jeff unleashed PCD and RM way back then. I was unstoppable and could model to my hearts content. It was just like someone finally gave me a pen and I already knew how to write and hadn't written before.
Fortunately, the time in the hobby is now. Back in the '30s when alot of this was starting or invented, the tools didn't exist to refine. As material sciences improved, then the computer generation finally became hand hold able, and software was affordable; now we can do what was guessed at and listened to for best results for over 50 years. We are in the golden age of Loudspeaker building, where only the minute tool capabilities don't yet exist. Most everything has been done before, and most everything is measurable.
Off the soapbox now, go do and make loudspeakers!!! (Applause/cheers)
Get some well recorded tracks and listen to them over and over. Some of the test tracks that we have used at events can be a good reference. Learn how to pick out frequency ranges. With the MAC-04 speakers I brought I had to take down the 3k area because vocals didn't sound right, it measured well but did not sound good in that range.
Try a lot of crossovers. There are a lot of ways to cross over at a desired frequency, and just because it simms nice doesn't mean that it might not sound better crossed 500hz plus or minus.
Directivity maters but it is another thing that ends up in the bag of compromises. Sometimes you have to go for what sounds.good rather than measures perfect.
Last but possibly most important, set up your speakers and room for good sound. My wife won't tolerate this all the time but for critical listening I will often set up "the triangle". Set your speaker 6 feet apart and sit 6 feet back. In the center of the room. This will kill your bass but the sound stage will be amazing. This will also help you hear the speakers more than the room.
Had these over at Brad's (Impious) yesterday evening. I'll let him chime in with details, but he was adamant that they were a major improvement with the SB12CACS25-4 woofers over the former Kartesian SUB120. I of course do agree.
Obviously I am a bit biased but I think there is something really special that SB designed or just stumbled onto with their CAC cones. I believe it's the same motor they use with their other cone materials (I could be wrong about that). Glad you like them Ben.
Comments
I agree. Jeff's Revolution mistakes, Ani's SB12CAC build, both of Craig's with the SB15CAC, the orange Micro-C kit, the Revel F208 ceramic version, etc....
These things are so detailed and sound so good, and blend well with the ceramidomes.
InDIYana Event Website
I totally agree 😜
They are more pricey than "OK" drivers like the Dayton reference drivers but not crazy expensive like Ellipticor, Illuminator, Purifi, Textreme, or Revelator expensive.
The RS125 is also a good fit for 125mm cutout. Ever used/modelled it?
These drivers were 120mm and 123mm, not 125mm. Since you asked though, yes, I've used the marvelous RS125-4 in the Stances. However, the xover to make it behave was more substantial.
InDIYana Event Website
Close mic'd the PR... It is clear now why I am getting better lowend than the FR shows...
InDIYana Event Website
I know this is likely NOT the proper way to do this, but I took the gated system FR and the nearfield PR response at the same output, and then summed them in PCD. The reason this sort of works is the dips in the System response will sum with the peaks in the PR response and show an average. Again- this is likely incorrect to a degree. The 180Hz dip is floor bounce as usual. The PR response and the system response likely will not sum to above the system response, so the bass range here is exaggerated.
InDIYana Event Website
Glamour shots...
InDIYana Event Website
When someone says they have a pair just like those at home, you know they are lying.
Steam punk speaker- what’ll they think of next?
After spending some time with that tweeter, what would you say the benefits are over a standard dome tweeter?
UPDATED: I just could not leave well enough alone apparently. Something didn't sound like I wanted it after the initial excitement subsided. Normally, I don't take this long to get it right. All I did was tweak a couple resistor values because they seemed a hair chesty and almost dull. I don't know that many would have noticed the change to be honest, but it makes them seem more sensitive and a bit more open sounding. I have uploaded the graphics pertaining to this adjusted version. I bet I added 3-4dB to the tweeter range. Sara Bareilles still isn't grating on the ears, so it must be okay.
Johnny5jz; I guess this above partially answers your question. Off axis isn't as bad as one would believe. It is a sensitive and finicky booger, and tweaking minute values shows up in the sonic qualities. I find it also is a pretty clinical/analytical and clean sounding device. It will reveal flaws in components and source content. So much so, it is easy to make it too dull to compensate for the blemishes. Depending on whether it fatigues me from here on out, I might even add an ohm back in on the switch for ease of listening. That won't do much but maybe help the HD signature a smidge. This is because I removed 3 ohms on the main resistor and 2 on the 'trough-compensation' LCR. I'll give it a week and see what I think....
InDIYana Event Website
Also- the 200Hz+ area may very well be 1st chamber cabinet resonances. Now that I have spent some time with them I feel this is the case. A roll/wad of Ultratouch in there should fix that issue.
InDIYana Event Website
Yep, the weird thing I've been fighting was a box coloration. While I was in attacking the tweeter switchboard, I shoved a roll of wool batting in behind the tweeter. They immediately sounded better. No more peaking in the lower mids.
Why I went in there you ask? I wanted to change the switch padding. The added 1 ohm resistor was previously making the tweeters too subdued. This meant if anything i needed less added resistance. I placed a single 1 ohm resistor across both of the previous (in series) 1 ohm resistors. This allows the added adjustment to 0, 0.5,or 0.66 ohms. While I was in there, I also added a Russian Teflon 0.1uF across the 10uF Zen Cap, just for the heck of it.
I'm now rounding 3rd base, and I see home up ahead. I already think these are the best 4" 2ways I've built. They have the clarity I wanted, the bass I desire from smaller builds, and the capabilities of a much larger speaker.
More to come as I finalize the preferred resistance....
InDIYana Event Website
Interesting, curious to see how these sound now since imagine vaporizing the quirks made it all come together and smile. At Indy something in the mid with that other woofer was not sitting right to me, like the tweet was riding alone even though the woofer was saying it was, levels wise.
And yeah, after an earlier 3 way shoddy tower trial with the wo24-sb12-sb29neo was like oh yeah, this is the mid woofer to use after trying handful of mid options. Though of course now remaking as nicer big standmount cabs and switch to the ceramidome viva vi V (loudspk on ebay) - but take my time on those and not use for sdc24. Likely enter some other combo using the dual epic7 bass bin for a 3 way.
Hoping the ceramidome's clarity appeals to me as much as seas titan 27tac (been enjoying those)
Yeah, that was how I felt about the Kartesians too. Mids were off, but i bet at least some of that was the cavity resonance.
I really like the Titans too, used them twice now.
They are considerably different in character, but i like the ceramidomes too. Still trying too see if I want added resistance or not. Without, it seems the the topend is a bit forced, but it feels like it won't take much more to get there. Even at a half ohm, it still feels maybe a touch dull.
I'll make up my mind eventually....
InDIYana Event Website
A problem has been found!
Let me start off by saying I'm a bit miffed at myself right now. Normally, I balance all of the xover parts I'm using by measurement to make sure error between them is not that much different. I usually have all of my parts marked with value measured by the same meter to verify. I investigated the 12 ohm resistors after I was having issues finding the match and level I preferred. I remembered that I just grabbed 2 of those at marked value from the box. I knew I checked the other ones.
One measured 12.4 ohms, and the other 11.8 ohms! No wonder they were not falling into line....
I found another 11.8 ohm resistor by measuring values from the box, and then added a 0.22 ohm resistor to each to match them to 12.03 ohms measured. It is very apparent that the speakers match now. They sound and measure the same!!
The earlier less padded channel measured back on 5-13-24, reposted here for visual:
The 500-3kHz range is clearly lower output compared to the rest as measured today.
And now, with true to schematic values from 5-13-24:
Now I know I can likely figure out which added padding I prefer. I was thinking prior that 1 ohm was too much, 0.5 ohms was too much, and waffling over 0.33 ohm or nill. This was likely because one sounded right in one setting, and the other sounded right in the other setting.
Please learn from my slight self-angst here, boys and girls, and measure your electrical xover parts for use!
InDIYana Event Website
While I can’t hear with my eyes, I’d be leaning to the middle chart > slight downward sloping out through 10kHz followed by a slight rise (‘course my ears are a bit older…). The third chart shows bump up +/- 3kHz, region I generally prefer a slight dip to neutral.
And yes, Xover parts need to be measured (often a combo of two resistors can best get you to the targeted resistance, and help with power rating as well).
Cool build, thx for all the measurements.
To my eyes, the 2 and 3 are virtual overlays.
InDIYana Event Website
They are quite close. One way to find out - if they can be overlaid, and matched dB below 1000Hz.
I can trace as I did not save the files. May hit that tomorrow. I think you'll be surprised.
InDIYana Event Website
Actually, I don’t think I’ve ever been able to get two separate measurements set-up exactly right to get results that close. So what little difference is probably just a tad difference in set-up.
Just as a setup of the process, these were both in the same location in my room, with same session of Omnimic open, at same volume level on same channel and amplifier, with Omnimic source disc in same player, and mic'd at the same distance and axis.
I know also that the xover parts are closely matched, the cabinets are built the same way with same masses and tunings. What will show as different at all will likely be driver inherent differences.
InDIYana Event Website
The only thing you didn't mention, but I'm quite sure you did do it, is make sure the 2nd cabinet is placed exactly the same as the 1st cabinet. It is the only thing that is physically changed. If I want to make sure I'm being that precise, I'd probably outline the bottom of the cabinet on my stand in painters tape.
I would call this a virtual overlay.
InDIYana Event Website
BTW- after the left and right matched, I added the 0.5 ohm resistance back in today. This is right where it's at now. The warmth is good, the treble is not overly subdued and still gives good detail and clarity without being bright, spitty, or harsh. I still say the bass is quite well extended. It may not hit a 25Hz fundamental, but 30-35Hz still comes through with at least some apparent authority. Bass guitar and cello have the proper weight without being bloated. Toms have the proper weight and impact.
This also should be said- I don't know that either the with or without 0.5 ohm resistor is right or wrong. It is really good in either position, or anywhere in between. What is interesting, is that the one that was padded to 12.4 was just shy of the 12.5 ohms (series resistance) currently. The 11.8 needed the 0.5 and a bit more still to be at the current setting. None of them were wrong, just needed to MATCH. Some people prefer brighter speakers than I do. I feel they should be detailed and realistic, but not harsh or fatiguing.
Finally, I think I have them done! Thanks for all that followed along through the difficulties. This was not a build that was easily done, but checks a box or 2 on the ol' 'bucket build' list.
InDIYana Event Website
I asked Javad about how I could train my ears to be able to do what you guys do. I remember what he said but I have not started the process yet. It is difficult for me. There are so many different materials and methods in which to use them. I guess I'm just a hands on kind of guy. Maybe when arthritis kicks in, I'll train my ears.
Honestly, familiarity with the music has to be a thing. You have to know the pieces inside and out, own a version of it, and know how it sounds in more than one instance like, say, on other speakers. If you have a reference pair, and a reference song, you can learn their qualities and translate it to another pair. After that, it's tastes and preferences, experiencing what some drivers can or can't do to know their qualities, and knowing the do's and don'ts of loudspeaker circuits and accepted practices. Then knowing what something does to the frequency response is key, as well as the black art of blending drivers. Treat them holistically, and see what they want to do in the simulation. This is better than the hammer method, but it can also work in some circumstances.
For me, I was around music growing up. Mom and dad always had it on. I remember when they bought the receiver, cassette deck, and turntable. I remember when dad blew the woofers in the speakers. I went to concerts when they could afford it, orchestra, soft rock, and country mostly. WOWO was played a lot.
There were performances in church with instruments as well, organ, Tuba, trumpet, strings, and guitar.
I played an instrument in school. The tonality of a trumpet and other band instruments is still ingrained in me.
There are tracks I've come to know very well from the various events I've attended. And then translated them.
I have had help, and a lot of it too since I started back in 1998. These selfless individuals all gave me pieces of information to hold onto, culminating in what you see here before you.
Then there is learning what you do and don't like. A lot of that is empirical and found by trial and error.
Unfortunately, just like in other things, the homework is still required reading. Before I had software, I read a lot about the processes, the textbook formulae, and the previous stated best practices. I still use some of the formulas when using the speed of sound or finding values for approximated filters. I did my book/internet homework before ever touching a microphone measurement system, because I was poor, in college, and couldn't afford it. It gave me the basics to where I was ready when Jeff unleashed PCD and RM way back then. I was unstoppable and could model to my hearts content. It was just like someone finally gave me a pen and I already knew how to write and hadn't written before.
Fortunately, the time in the hobby is now. Back in the '30s when alot of this was starting or invented, the tools didn't exist to refine. As material sciences improved, then the computer generation finally became hand hold able, and software was affordable; now we can do what was guessed at and listened to for best results for over 50 years. We are in the golden age of Loudspeaker building, where only the minute tool capabilities don't yet exist. Most everything has been done before, and most everything is measurable.
Off the soapbox now, go do and make loudspeakers!!! (Applause/cheers)
InDIYana Event Website
Get some well recorded tracks and listen to them over and over. Some of the test tracks that we have used at events can be a good reference. Learn how to pick out frequency ranges. With the MAC-04 speakers I brought I had to take down the 3k area because vocals didn't sound right, it measured well but did not sound good in that range.
Try a lot of crossovers. There are a lot of ways to cross over at a desired frequency, and just because it simms nice doesn't mean that it might not sound better crossed 500hz plus or minus.
Directivity maters but it is another thing that ends up in the bag of compromises. Sometimes you have to go for what sounds.good rather than measures perfect.
Last but possibly most important, set up your speakers and room for good sound. My wife won't tolerate this all the time but for critical listening I will often set up "the triangle". Set your speaker 6 feet apart and sit 6 feet back. In the center of the room. This will kill your bass but the sound stage will be amazing. This will also help you hear the speakers more than the room.
Had these over at Brad's (Impious) yesterday evening. I'll let him chime in with details, but he was adamant that they were a major improvement with the SB12CACS25-4 woofers over the former Kartesian SUB120. I of course do agree.
InDIYana Event Website
Obviously I am a bit biased but I think there is something really special that SB designed or just stumbled onto with their CAC cones. I believe it's the same motor they use with their other cone materials (I could be wrong about that). Glad you like them Ben.