I asked Javad about how I could train my ears to be able to do what you guys do. I remember what he said but I have not started the process yet. It is difficult for me. There are so many different materials and methods in which to use them. I guess I'm just a hands on kind of guy. Maybe when arthritis kicks in, I'll train my ears.
Honestly, familiarity with the music has to be a thing. You have to know the pieces inside and out, own a version of it, and know how it sounds in more than one instance like, say, on other speakers. If you have a reference pair, and a reference song, you can learn their qualities and translate it to another pair. After that, it's tastes and preferences, experiencing what some drivers can or can't do to know their qualities, and knowing the do's and don'ts of loudspeaker circuits and accepted practices. Then knowing what something does to the frequency response is key, as well as the black art of blending drivers. Treat them holistically, and see what they want to do in the simulation. This is better than the hammer method, but it can also work in some circumstances.
For me, I was around music growing up. Mom and dad always had it on. I remember when they bought the receiver, cassette deck, and turntable. I remember when dad blew the woofers in the speakers. I went to concerts when they could afford it, orchestra, soft rock, and country mostly. WOWO was played a lot.
There were performances in church with instruments as well, organ, Tuba, trumpet, strings, and guitar.
I played an instrument in school. The tonality of a trumpet and other band instruments is still ingrained in me.
There are tracks I've come to know very well from the various events I've attended. And then translated them.
I have had help, and a lot of it too since I started back in 1998. These selfless individuals all gave me pieces of information to hold onto, culminating in what you see here before you.
Then there is learning what you do and don't like. A lot of that is empirical and found by trial and error.
Unfortunately, just like in other things, the homework is still required reading. Before I had software, I read a lot about the processes, the textbook formulae, and the previous stated best practices. I still use some of the formulas when using the speed of sound or finding values for approximated filters. I did my book/internet homework before ever touching a microphone measurement system, because I was poor, in college, and couldn't afford it. It gave me the basics to where I was ready when Jeff unleashed PCD and RM way back then. I was unstoppable and could model to my hearts content. It was just like someone finally gave me a pen and I already knew how to write and hadn't written before.
Fortunately, the time in the hobby is now. Back in the '30s when alot of this was starting or invented, the tools didn't exist to refine. As material sciences improved, then the computer generation finally became hand hold able, and software was affordable; now we can do what was guessed at and listened to for best results for over 50 years. We are in the golden age of Loudspeaker building, where only the minute tool capabilities don't yet exist. Most everything has been done before, and most everything is measurable.
Off the soapbox now, go do and make loudspeakers!!! (Applause/cheers)
Get some well recorded tracks and listen to them over and over. Some of the test tracks that we have used at events can be a good reference. Learn how to pick out frequency ranges. With the MAC-04 speakers I brought I had to take down the 3k area because vocals didn't sound right, it measured well but did not sound good in that range.
Try a lot of crossovers. There are a lot of ways to cross over at a desired frequency, and just because it simms nice doesn't mean that it might not sound better crossed 500hz plus or minus.
Directivity maters but it is another thing that ends up in the bag of compromises. Sometimes you have to go for what sounds.good rather than measures perfect.
Last but possibly most important, set up your speakers and room for good sound. My wife won't tolerate this all the time but for critical listening I will often set up "the triangle". Set your speaker 6 feet apart and sit 6 feet back. In the center of the room. This will kill your bass but the sound stage will be amazing. This will also help you hear the speakers more than the room.
Had these over at Brad's (Impious) yesterday evening. I'll let him chime in with details, but he was adamant that they were a major improvement with the SB12CACS25-4 woofers over the former Kartesian SUB120. I of course do agree.
Obviously I am a bit biased but I think there is something really special that SB designed or just stumbled onto with their CAC cones. I believe it's the same motor they use with their other cone materials (I could be wrong about that). Glad you like them Ben.
I have found the CAC drivers to be very exceptional as well, even the Bromo kit was very nice. To me, the clarity is so good and better than the SB aluminum sibling; even if the measurements say they are the same. I like them a lot! That said, I've been a fan of ceramic drivers since 2007 at Iowa when first hearing the MBOW1 2nd generation from Dave Ellis with Accuton drivers. Clarity of all the subtle nuances is reproduced articulately with these kind of drive units.
Dare I say, with some bias, this is the best 4" (really more of a 4.5") TM 2way I've built or heard. I know of no other in this size class to yield good clean bass to the lower 30Hz range, nor any other to do it as cleanly. Josh Groban's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" was just impressive. Rory's Neutrinos are a very close second IMO, with my Stances, Sophomores, and Synchaetas, Paul's Speedsters and OS, Scott's Rhodiums, Dan's Purifi/LD22, MikeyZ's New Horizons, and Duanebro's Dayton 4s somewhere below there. This opinion is based on only those i have heard, and i am sure there are many others i have not. None of the others however have the complexity and complications I had with these either. They were a very complicated build process, rife with added assembly steps and more resulting difficulties as the build progressed.
I don't plan on doing a DCR or DBR with PRs in the future, unless I can use a MUCH larger box. This was mainly a proof of concept build, as well as a bucket-list build, as I'd seen no other of the same. I would encourage others to try it before denying the capabilities, but be aware and ready for the challenges to ensue.
It was obvious when listened to sb12cac that is was a special driver. I've also had the 15 and 17. The 5 inch I was inexperience and didn't get the best out of except for great bass. But then rebuilt 3 way that originally had 'bromo' kit with a 10 inch driver assist and did bad on until I revisited after cutting my teeth some for 3 way xovers. New version was with peerless sls10, sb17cac and sb26tac, leveraged some of Hinson's tweet shaping from his rulebreakers and ended up creating slamming 3 way that sounded right. The sb17cac's were killing it with loud metal/rock that my oldest son listens to up there in the bonus room who commented "I like the way those sound" when I was trying to voice them in my smallish room.
My chunkers, I call them, with sb12cac, wavecor ceramidome and satori wo24 3 ways are doing well in fam room. Still some final voicing to get bass balance right for the room which didn't notice until listened to more music, but kills it for tv/movie/series watching. It is always great when wife comments on things sounding good or improved. So clear and defined in upper bands, no glares - it almost like no news is good news impression that like oh yeah. I can tell myself when DD5.1 dynamics start peaking that drivers not even breaking sweat and just deliver.
Mind you, my applied box is what allows the extension. I heard the Micro C a few years ago, and it's a dynamite little package too, but does not go as low.
@Wolf said:
Mind you, my applied box is what allows the extension. I heard the Micro C a few years ago, and it's a dynamite little package too, but does not go as low.
Understood here, Ben - I am interested in them primarily for their use as a detailed midrange driver in a 3 way or as a desktop PC speaker as a midwoofer. If they are as detailed as the ^ comments indicate they should fit either role with aplomb.
I'm with @Wolf . So whilst the SB12CAC is a good driver, in this case, much of bass is coming from the enclosure and elaborate tuning and passive radiator(s).
I wonder whether an outdoor ground plane measurement will reveal the most truth...
Yes exactly as you showed previously. Far more and wider range of output, than say, the output of the Micro-C, which I’ve measured, but not sure where I’ve saved the measurements (change of PC)
did you, by chance, manage to capture a nearfield of the SB12?
Exactly how much bass is that contributing, and at what frequencies eg, 250Hz-120Hz, 120Hz-60Hz, 60Hz-30Hz.
He was easy to work with too. I stated size, font, and color I was hoping for, and he listed my options. This was such a simple process. I'll likely have Keith make more for me in the future. If you want something like this, I believe Keith is your man!
@Wolf said:
He was easy to work with too. I stated size, font, and color I was hoping for, and he listed my options. This was such a simple process. I'll likely have Keith make more for me in the future. If you want something like this, I believe Keith is your man!
Thanks for the kind recommendation, Ben! I appreciated how prepared you were with your needs. You made the process super easy
I have had plates made at the local trophy shop several times, so I had an idea what you would need. They always looked at me funny because I would specify font, shape, size, style, etc. I was very particular in the look i wanted. They also charged quite a bit more than you did with a setup fee, etc, and got a few wrong and had to redo them. Once I said Xenolith and got Cenolith. Another, the Stances, I'm still not certain it isn't still wrong. I used Parchment font, and the first letter is questionable. With you, Keith, this was a breeze by comparison.
Comments
I asked Javad about how I could train my ears to be able to do what you guys do. I remember what he said but I have not started the process yet. It is difficult for me. There are so many different materials and methods in which to use them. I guess I'm just a hands on kind of guy. Maybe when arthritis kicks in, I'll train my ears.
Honestly, familiarity with the music has to be a thing. You have to know the pieces inside and out, own a version of it, and know how it sounds in more than one instance like, say, on other speakers. If you have a reference pair, and a reference song, you can learn their qualities and translate it to another pair. After that, it's tastes and preferences, experiencing what some drivers can or can't do to know their qualities, and knowing the do's and don'ts of loudspeaker circuits and accepted practices. Then knowing what something does to the frequency response is key, as well as the black art of blending drivers. Treat them holistically, and see what they want to do in the simulation. This is better than the hammer method, but it can also work in some circumstances.
For me, I was around music growing up. Mom and dad always had it on. I remember when they bought the receiver, cassette deck, and turntable. I remember when dad blew the woofers in the speakers. I went to concerts when they could afford it, orchestra, soft rock, and country mostly. WOWO was played a lot.
There were performances in church with instruments as well, organ, Tuba, trumpet, strings, and guitar.
I played an instrument in school. The tonality of a trumpet and other band instruments is still ingrained in me.
There are tracks I've come to know very well from the various events I've attended. And then translated them.
I have had help, and a lot of it too since I started back in 1998. These selfless individuals all gave me pieces of information to hold onto, culminating in what you see here before you.
Then there is learning what you do and don't like. A lot of that is empirical and found by trial and error.
Unfortunately, just like in other things, the homework is still required reading. Before I had software, I read a lot about the processes, the textbook formulae, and the previous stated best practices. I still use some of the formulas when using the speed of sound or finding values for approximated filters. I did my book/internet homework before ever touching a microphone measurement system, because I was poor, in college, and couldn't afford it. It gave me the basics to where I was ready when Jeff unleashed PCD and RM way back then. I was unstoppable and could model to my hearts content. It was just like someone finally gave me a pen and I already knew how to write and hadn't written before.
Fortunately, the time in the hobby is now. Back in the '30s when alot of this was starting or invented, the tools didn't exist to refine. As material sciences improved, then the computer generation finally became hand hold able, and software was affordable; now we can do what was guessed at and listened to for best results for over 50 years. We are in the golden age of Loudspeaker building, where only the minute tool capabilities don't yet exist. Most everything has been done before, and most everything is measurable.
Off the soapbox now, go do and make loudspeakers!!! (Applause/cheers)
InDIYana Event Website
Get some well recorded tracks and listen to them over and over. Some of the test tracks that we have used at events can be a good reference. Learn how to pick out frequency ranges. With the MAC-04 speakers I brought I had to take down the 3k area because vocals didn't sound right, it measured well but did not sound good in that range.
Try a lot of crossovers. There are a lot of ways to cross over at a desired frequency, and just because it simms nice doesn't mean that it might not sound better crossed 500hz plus or minus.
Directivity maters but it is another thing that ends up in the bag of compromises. Sometimes you have to go for what sounds.good rather than measures perfect.
Last but possibly most important, set up your speakers and room for good sound. My wife won't tolerate this all the time but for critical listening I will often set up "the triangle". Set your speaker 6 feet apart and sit 6 feet back. In the center of the room. This will kill your bass but the sound stage will be amazing. This will also help you hear the speakers more than the room.
Had these over at Brad's (Impious) yesterday evening. I'll let him chime in with details, but he was adamant that they were a major improvement with the SB12CACS25-4 woofers over the former Kartesian SUB120. I of course do agree.
InDIYana Event Website
Obviously I am a bit biased but I think there is something really special that SB designed or just stumbled onto with their CAC cones. I believe it's the same motor they use with their other cone materials (I could be wrong about that). Glad you like them Ben.
I have found the CAC drivers to be very exceptional as well, even the Bromo kit was very nice. To me, the clarity is so good and better than the SB aluminum sibling; even if the measurements say they are the same. I like them a lot! That said, I've been a fan of ceramic drivers since 2007 at Iowa when first hearing the MBOW1 2nd generation from Dave Ellis with Accuton drivers. Clarity of all the subtle nuances is reproduced articulately with these kind of drive units.
Dare I say, with some bias, this is the best 4" (really more of a 4.5") TM 2way I've built or heard. I know of no other in this size class to yield good clean bass to the lower 30Hz range, nor any other to do it as cleanly. Josh Groban's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" was just impressive. Rory's Neutrinos are a very close second IMO, with my Stances, Sophomores, and Synchaetas, Paul's Speedsters and OS, Scott's Rhodiums, Dan's Purifi/LD22, MikeyZ's New Horizons, and Duanebro's Dayton 4s somewhere below there. This opinion is based on only those i have heard, and i am sure there are many others i have not. None of the others however have the complexity and complications I had with these either. They were a very complicated build process, rife with added assembly steps and more resulting difficulties as the build progressed.
I don't plan on doing a DCR or DBR with PRs in the future, unless I can use a MUCH larger box. This was mainly a proof of concept build, as well as a bucket-list build, as I'd seen no other of the same. I would encourage others to try it before denying the capabilities, but be aware and ready for the challenges to ensue.
InDIYana Event Website
It was obvious when listened to sb12cac that is was a special driver. I've also had the 15 and 17. The 5 inch I was inexperience and didn't get the best out of except for great bass. But then rebuilt 3 way that originally had 'bromo' kit with a 10 inch driver assist and did bad on until I revisited after cutting my teeth some for 3 way xovers. New version was with peerless sls10, sb17cac and sb26tac, leveraged some of Hinson's tweet shaping from his rulebreakers and ended up creating slamming 3 way that sounded right. The sb17cac's were killing it with loud metal/rock that my oldest son listens to up there in the bonus room who commented "I like the way those sound" when I was trying to voice them in my smallish room.
My chunkers, I call them, with sb12cac, wavecor ceramidome and satori wo24 3 ways are doing well in fam room. Still some final voicing to get bass balance right for the room which didn't notice until listened to more music, but kills it for tv/movie/series watching. It is always great when wife comments on things sounding good or improved. So clear and defined in upper bands, no glares - it almost like no news is good news impression that like oh yeah. I can tell myself when DD5.1 dynamics start peaking that drivers not even breaking sweat and just deliver.
Oh, look they are on sale at $20 off each -->https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-woofers/sb-acoustics-sb12cacs25-04
Yep, a great price!
InDIYana Event Website
There are some even cheaper on eBay (about $70 for a PAIR). I picked up a pair due to all of the favorable comments above.
Mind you, my applied box is what allows the extension. I heard the Micro C a few years ago, and it's a dynamite little package too, but does not go as low.
InDIYana Event Website
Damn! Thanks for the heads-up, David! --> https://www.ebay.com/itm/145688064432?itmmeta=01J0KB75KMB56XCF6HEGQVM0KF&hash=item21ebaf71b0:g:5wYAAOSwBOtmAk1M&itmprp=enc:AQAJAAAA4Hd9ZsZCHHu5PI7AQdmhgTUJgqhsZkTV3vXcDfV1GpbITMPS/sIxZOsTtPK/cjWnK1PJzf4qx2Qiwes4J4B26auiRCA2/mG+95+u7jn2w5sivYLeHVvzHtxPQZ6l0CTZyyQ2u6OGMINZa52LvS1Fy9kuH/Sy5DygNAW60nmU+VM3FrtxOE3ZQlsmycxqwos/kadnJFnv26dj07cBg13Eph8ZFiG4oKmhhiVU52xhDjpv0fdh5go+NhzF1oC/MctGwUeAS9MVacO0t7COvpQd0MKlIEpHSoyrYvYF2qy2+sob|tkp:Bk9SR_DZnOuEZA
I CANNOT RESIST!
Understood here, Ben - I am interested in them primarily for their use as a detailed midrange driver in a 3 way or as a desktop PC speaker as a midwoofer. If they are as detailed as the ^ comments indicate they should fit either role with aplomb.
I'm with @Wolf . So whilst the SB12CAC is a good driver, in this case, much of bass is coming from the enclosure and elaborate tuning and passive radiator(s).
I wonder whether an outdoor ground plane measurement will reveal the most truth...
Still need to get to my off axis measurements, but I think the rear PR nearfield plot shows a lot about what is going on.
InDIYana Event Website
Yes exactly as you showed previously. Far more and wider range of output, than say, the output of the Micro-C, which I’ve measured, but not sure where I’ve saved the measurements (change of PC)
did you, by chance, manage to capture a nearfield of the SB12?
Exactly how much bass is that contributing, and at what frequencies eg, 250Hz-120Hz, 120Hz-60Hz, 60Hz-30Hz.
No, but I can...
InDIYana Event Website
Just redrew the final circuit as I have them. Nothing has changed for awhile, just have more clarity in the schematic.
InDIYana Event Website
Well done. Thanks for sharing. One of these days I am going to sit down and "try" to figure out how to do a series connected xover.
Laserboy hooked me up with some nice badges....
InDIYana Event Website
Way to go Keith! Those look cool.
He was easy to work with too. I stated size, font, and color I was hoping for, and he listed my options. This was such a simple process. I'll likely have Keith make more for me in the future. If you want something like this, I believe Keith is your man!
InDIYana Event Website
Absolutely!
Thanks Craig! I'm always happy to help out my speaker buds!
Thanks for the kind recommendation, Ben! I appreciated how prepared you were with your needs. You made the process super easy
I have had plates made at the local trophy shop several times, so I had an idea what you would need. They always looked at me funny because I would specify font, shape, size, style, etc. I was very particular in the look i wanted. They also charged quite a bit more than you did with a setup fee, etc, and got a few wrong and had to redo them. Once I said Xenolith and got Cenolith. Another, the Stances, I'm still not certain it isn't still wrong. I used Parchment font, and the first letter is questionable. With you, Keith, this was a breeze by comparison.
InDIYana Event Website
InDIYana Event Website
Kidos with pokey fingers?
Not mine, she's almost 12. A little concerned over PE in a couple weeks if any kids are present. $250/tweeter isn't easy to replace.
InDIYana Event Website
Or some of the adults